Wireless Everything at Dartmouth

hende_jman writes "Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire is condensing its phone, cable TV, and Internet services all into Wi-Fi, as reported by the New York Times (free registration required). The project, which started in 2001, has added 1400 WAPs and 24,000 wired ports. All that, and cost effective too."

Everything?

[garcia (6573)]

Those poor Dartmouth students... The future is here!

Lenina Huxley: I was wondering if you would like to have sex?
John Spartan: With you? Here? Now?
[Lenina nods]
John Spartan: Oh, yeah.

[after futuristic, contact-free "sex"]
John Spartan: I was thinkin' we could do it the old-fashioned way.
Lenina Huxley: You mean... *fluid transfer*?

Even though contact-free "sex" sounds lame I'm sure wireless beer would be something to rave about!

Re:Everything?

[xCepheus (687775)]

Even though it'd be contact free most /.'rs still probably wouldn't be able to get it.

*ducks*

Re:Everything?

[caryw (131578)]

Are they forgetting that these 11Mbps or 54Mbps speeds are the aggregate total for an access point? I hope not.
Also, if you get a powerful enough microwave or something else that transmits in that 2.4Ghz wavelength it should be fairly easy to bring down the entire campus "phone, cable TV, and Internet services."
Sounds like fun.
--
Fairfax Underground: Local discussion forums for residents of Fairfax County, VA [fairfaxunderground.com]

Re:Everything?

[CyberDave (79582)]

Not to mention that that aggregate bandwidth of 11 Mbps or 54 Mbps is the bandwidth provided at the raw physical layer. Even when you get to layer 2, you lose a lot of that bandwidth due to all ACKs at the MAC layer, the various timers (inter-frame delays). Then add on top of that the retransmission of lots frames due to interference and you're down to less than 10 Mbps of bandwidth. I've seen data from Vivato that indicates that you get even less than that (around 5 Mbps) in real-world conditions on a 802.11g network. That's about 10% usable bandwidth. Shared. That's not nearly enough. That's enough for maybe one TV channel and nothing else. And don't get me started on the latency...

Re:Everything?

[NoMoreNicksLeft (516230)]

Not-quite-so-dumb-question:

Would wired gigabit be enough for a decent cable tv selection, assuming you were competent to set up the multicasting correctly? And how much bandwidth would it eat up per channel, and what kind of video might you get?

Is it truly enough bandwidth that you could consider wasting a bunch of it on say, a basic cable setup?

Re:Everything?

[CyberDave (79582)]

Yes, if the multicasting is done correctly.

The short answer is that you don't actually have to multicast all twelve billion (slight exageration) channels simultaneously all the way to the set top boxes, just whatever 12 channels the people on the LAN are using (looking at this from the POV of a residential cable system based on Gig-E fiber to the home). If this is done inteligently, you can multicast only those channels being viewed and use IGMP snooping to figure out what to start multicasting from the cable head end. Depending on the exact network configuration (PON, active, etc), the multicast pruning might be done in the network, in the CPE, etc.

As for bandwidth, yes, it does matter what codec you use, but MPEG-2 for standard resolution TV is 4-6 MB/sec (IIRC). HDTV is another matter entirely, as it's huge (especially when uncompressed).

I'd write more, but it's time for lunch.

Re:TV over ethernet

[CharlieHedlin (102121)]

Digital cable and statelite typically use 2-2.5mbits for SD programing. With proper multicasting, QOS, large frames, you could probably get 500mbits onto GigE without trashing the network, giving us 250 SD channels.

HD mpeg2 needs about 18mbits, and HD divx needs 10-12mbps. I believe DVDs run at 4-5 mbits, and the quality is better than digital cable or satelite.

Re:Everything?

[NoMoreNicksLeft (516230)]

The copper is actually short, less than a mile, less than 1000ft in many cases. They use HFC, hybrid fiber/coax. It's fiber nearly until it gets to you. What's more, it's heavily insulated/shielded coax, and has alot more bandwidth than the standard telco loop.

Contrast this with a telco loop which can be 5+ miles of unshielded copper.

Wireless TV?

[by Anonymous Coward]

What will those crazy kids think of next? Wireless radio?

Brilliant!

[Thud457 (234763)]

Wireless television ?!!!

Brilliant! Brillant!

Re:Brilliant!

[eobanb (823187)]

1. Charge a shitload for tuition
2. Force students to purchase wi-fi interface for television
3. And phone
4. ???
5. I think you know what this step is

this seems dumb

[eobanb (823187)]

Wireless purely for the sake of wireless is just a stupid idea. I'm assuming they pretty much already have most of the infrastructure they need. Don't the dorms and offices and classrooms already have phone lines??? Also, the bandwidth of Wi-Fi is puny compared to gigE, which is what is required for some on-campus applications like streaming video (I'm a student at IU and we do things like that sometimes). Plus there's the whole security problem. This just seems like one big joke...

Re:this seems dumb

[maw (25860)]

It is stupid.

The simple fact is that today, in 2005, wireless doesn't work well at all. In the cases where it does work well, check how close the AP is. You'll see that it is so close that you might as well be using a cable anyway.

Re:this seems dumb

[hanssprudel (323035)]

Do we have any evidence that they are really replacing all wired ethernet by wireless? It sounds to me like if the Dartmouth PR department and the NYT are putting the emphasis on the latest buzzword technology. The article does say, after all, that they have added 24,0000 ethernet ports as well.

I am not a student there, so I cannot say but it sounds more like what they have actually done is put phone and TV/video service into the IP based network - both wired and wireless - so as to simplify maintance. Thi

Re:this seems dumb

[Strange Ranger (454494)]

I have NetGear's 108Mbps Wireless G "Turbo". It works wonders. And yes it reaches farther than any reasonable person would want to run a cord. To the edges of my 1 acre yard actually if you count a 60% signal, which works fine.

That's not the point though. If distance were the only issue then your TV remote might as well be wired. How lame would that be?

Re:this seems dumb

[buelba (701300)]

>Wireless purely for the sake of wireless is just a stupid idea.

There is an incredible convenience to wireless that you're omitting here. Just within my own house, I absolutely adore the ability to use my laptop in the office, kitchen, back yard, etc. This is *worlds* better than having to plug in.

Multiplying this same convenience across a college campus -- to outdoor use, informal study groups in first-floor rooms, empty classrooms, etc. -- would be amazing. I wish I were 18 again.

Re:this seems dumb

[Bastian (66383)]

Multiplying this same convenience across a college campus -- to outdoor use, informal study groups in first-floor rooms, empty classrooms, etc. -- would be amazing.

It would be amazing. Amazingly expensive and kludgey and slow.

There might be a wireless technology that is suited to this sort of application, but it sure as heck isn't WiFi.

And this isn't just for internet access. .. it's also throwing TV (which I read to mean, "uncompressed streaming video) and phone service, both of which are huge bandwid

Re:this seems dumb

[darthtrevino (812116)]

True, but I think the heart of the issue is what the big broadcasting and telco companies fear most: mass internet convergence.

Imagine when your internet comes through municipal sources (or power lines for arguments sake).

Your television programming, following the lead of films, are on demand and delivered via the internet. Your phone is VOIP, delivered over the internet. Cable and telephone companies are up the river on content delivery and service providing. The reason they are fighting municipal wi-fi

Re:this seems dumb

[NanoGator (522640)]

"Wireless purely for the sake of wireless is just a stupid idea."

Living in a college dorm is expensive enough. Phone bill? $30/mo. Cable? (Granted, it's a luxury.) $40-80/mo.

I don't know if, from an infrastructure point of view, this can be practically be done. However, if it can, this means a few things:

1.) Potentially lower cost to students for basic services. (Assuming the cable co. doesn't go apeshit over it...)

2.) Wireless means not having to upgrade cables. If, for example, they need to rewi

Re:this seems dumb

[gunnk (463227)]

It depends on what the network was like BEFORE the switch to wireless. If the buildings were all wired with Cat-3 cable to the wall port, why rewire with Cat-5 and then do it again in a very few years when you need fiber or some new Cat-X cable?

Maybe wireless isn't as good as wired yet, but it isn't that bad either. The overall savings they may realize by no longer having to run new cables to every friggin wall port should more than make up for any cost now. When wifi improves, just swap out the access points.

Re:this seems dumb

[duffbeer703 (177751)]

That's why third world countries like Malayasia have more computer science graduates than the United States.

We live in a post-industrial society where only the irrelevant matters. Paris Hilton is the #1 story on the news when we might be days away from war with North Korea.

Wireless Everything!

[by Anonymous Coward]

*24,000 wired ports rounded down to 0 for sake of discussion.

Wireless Television

[daved321 (229528)]

Damn, wireless television... I can't beleive that this hasn't been done before...

No, it's wireless CABLE TV

[winkydink (650484)]

Now there's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.

Karma Whoring

[defore (691193)]

TFA IT'S not that he doesn't like them or doubts his teaching ability, but Thomas H. Luxon, an English professor at Dartmouth College here, wants to see his students less next semester, hoping they will learn a lot more without having to look at him in a classroom. Professor Luxon, who teaches courses on Shakespeare, wishes they will instead be watching scenes from "The Merchant of Venice" or "Macbeth" on their PC's while sitting on a lawn, in a coffee shop or while relaxing in a dorm room. "That will be really cool," Professor Luxon said. "They could watch it on their own time and in their own place instead of having to go to the classroom or the media center. That means they could review it as often as they like, and they don't have to see it just once." Professor Luxon is able to release his students from the shackles of forced classroom movie viewing as a result of a major wireless convergence project that has taken Dartmouth's phone, cable and wireless systems and condensed them into one Wi-Fi network. The project, officials say, keeps students on the forefront of wireless technology, and opens up endless educational and teaching opportunities while saving the college millions of dollars. The switch, which started in 2001 and will be complete with the wireless cable rollout this fall, includes the addition of 1,400 wireless access points and 24,000 wired ports across the campus of the 236-year-old college, the first in the country to completely integrate its communications systems into a wireless infrastructure. "This really improves our ability to deliver types of information services that enhance teaching and learning," said Brad Noblet, Dartmouth's director of technical services. The first phase of the cable rollout will put the school's cable television system online. After that, students, professors and anyone else on the overall network will be able to make up his or her own "channel," showing movie clips, video projects or presentations with cable-quality video. The college's public affairs office hopes to have its own channel as well. It could also be used by students to shop for classes during course selection because they could view a few minutes of a lecture or discussion on the network, and by professors to provide discussion materials before class. Dartmouth also hopes to put all its public lectures and forums on a cable network instead of on the sometimes gritty streaming video now available. "We're really at the front end of this," said Jeffrey L. Horrell, dean of the libraries and librarian of the college. "It's not yet clear where the boundaries are." The new network could even change how students write papers. They will not replace words or writing, but might enhance, say, a paper on "The Merchant of Venice" with a clip of the actor Patrick Stewart explaining the method behind his portrayal of the character Shylock, said Professor Luxon, who teaches a course on the play. "Imagine writing a paper about one of these performances and including a video clip in your paper, like you would a quote," he said. "Now your paper isn't on paper anymore, it's on a Web site or a word file." The convergence project is meant for educational purposes, but it is not bad for entertainment, either. Students will be able to catch the latest episode of MTV's "Pimp My Ride" or any other television show anywhere on campus - including in class. While that is one more worry for professors who are now used to students staring at screens, they hope that the interaction and stimulation of a class will detract from the desire to tune in to "TRL" during sociology, Mr. Horrell said. Students, many of whom did not know about the new service, are enthusiastic. Jean Cowgill, 19, a freshman, hopes to use the network to watch materials outside of class. But, Ms. Cowgill said, the cable access might backfire. "That sounds amazing," she said. "But I don't know how great it will be for my study habits." Wireless data has been available here since 2001. Its success led the technology department to combine it with the college's

Re:Karma Whoring

[eobanb (823187)]

"The possibilities are really endless," she said.

How about...ooh, wireless line breaks.

Re:Karma Whoring

[dstewart (853530)]

Sure, why not.

Here's the registration-free link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/04/technology/techs pecial/04zezima.html?ex=1272859200&en=162c148f441a 31ff&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss [nytimes.com]

Research Institutions

[lake2112 (748837)]

Research based institutions like Dartmouth like to be the first to do things. The prestige of being completely wireless is not to provide convenience, but to allow them to be one of the first to do something.

Re:Research Institutions

[Hrvat (307784)]

Research? What research? There is not much research going on at Dartmouth, unless they got a huge influx of researchers in last 4 years.

2.4 GHz telephone

[by Anonymous Coward]

...means DoS attack on entire dorm

I'm not surprised with Dartmouth

[pbooktebo (699003)]

My brother went to Dartmouth in 1993, and they required everyone to have a computer as they already had campus-wide "blitz mail," which was used a bit like IM. All their assignments were handed in via email, class cancellations were broadcast that way, etc. Everyone was on it.

Meanwhile, I was at Florida State in Tallahassee, where it wasn't until probably 1995 that you could even easily get a university email (we used to have to set up free city accounts at the public library, which we could then access from campus).

I don't know that it made much of a difference in his education, but he loved the wow factor and I'm sure that's at play here, too.

Let me get this straight

[mattmentecky (799199)]

TFA:

Hardware: Wireless Everything at Dartmouth Wireless Networking
Posted by timothy on Wednesday May 04, @01:00PM
from the breaking-ties dept.
hende_jman writes "Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire is condensing its phone, cable TV, and Internet services all into Wi-Fi, as reported by the New York Times (free registration required). The project, which started in 2001, has added 1400 WAPs and 24,000 wired ports. All that, and cost effective too."

Guess it depends what your definition of "wireless" and "everything" is.

Re:Let me get this straight

[Mage Powers (607708)]

Just a small heads up on quoting things:

TFA -> The $f article
TFP -> The $f post

$f being one of frell frack f***ing friendly etc

Single Point of Failure

[RealProgrammer (723725)]

What if someone is digging a hole through the air and cuts their wireless connection? What then, huh?

This is unfair competition with BellAtlantic. I predict lawsuits when users demand to be given a choice.

Won't this give them all brain cancer?

The problems seem endless.

Embrace the green glow...

[AIX-Hood (682681)]

This just in, instances of cancer in the Darthmouth area have been mysteriously rising over the last few years. Authorities are baffled!

WiFi Collision madness

[null etc. (524767)]

In my moderately small apartment complex (I am middle-aged, and so are my neighbors), my network can detect 12 other wireless networks in the immediate area. Often, I have problems with channel collision, where my network will just be bullied out of existence by other networks.

At such times, my laptop, in my den, cannot see the wireless router in my living room. Granted, it doesn't occur often, but it's a major incovenience when it does.

Solution

[geekoid (135745)]

use your neighbors network.

Cost Savings and Complete Coverage

[amarcuss (655713)]

While wireless isn't new, the idea of it being absolutely ubiquitous on campus is fantastic. How frustrating is it in the real world to have to find an AP? Even within places like airports, coverage is spotty at best and you can't really roam easily. The ability to do everything (Internet, Phone, and TV) on your laptop is great. It also saves money for the College as well. More details can be found here http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/columns/article.php/349 9271 [wi-fiplanet.com]

why do you think it's called BLITZ mail?

[poot_rootbeer (188613)]

Knowing the Dartmouth student body, this plan isn't likely to meet with widespread approval until they find a way to deliver campus-wide Wireless Drinking.

AirPwn

[crimethinker (721591)]

I predict increasing use of AirPwn [evilscheme.org] on-campus. See also SourceForge project page [sourceforge.net].

Nothing works quite as well as a good, old-fashioned bundle of wires.

P.S. no connection to the AirPwn folks myself; I just think their particular demonstration project was eff-ing hilarious.

-paul

I go to Dartmouth...

[theoddball (665938)]

...and I work at the helpdesk, no less. I've beta-tested the VOIP rollout and supported the rest. My personal opinion is that the wireless network will NOT hold up well under heavy load once all these services go into widespread use. As it stands now, things slow to a crawl during finals, etc, when people swarm the library and the APs. This is, after all, an 802.11b campuswide network. The backbone is there, but I don't know how the APs will deal with all these latency-sensitive streams. Side note: they've been promoting the VOIP option in the media for months now, but students aren't allowed to get extensions. A little disingenuous, no? Hell, I'd just be happy if the "100% coverage" actually ever gave me a signal in my room. There's some content, and prospects, for this--but so far, it's just PR-fluff.

Re:I go to Dartmouth...

[cynic10508 (785816)]

I'm also curious about 802.11 interference. A poorly placed microwave in a dorm room could possibly kill an otherwise strong signal.

In a related story, the FCC finds that...

[IronChefMorimoto (691038)]

...1400 WAPs in a small geographic area contributes to 2.4GHz sterility in males and females.

However, notes an unidentified Dartmouth sophomore interviewed at March 30 mixer, "most of us are into one-night stands anyway, so this'll make it less risky. Hell -- you're assuming we're getting any in the first place!"

Although students seem OK with sterility, Dartmouth human resources is retrofitting all faculty and staff cubicles and offices on campus with tin foil.

IronChefMorimoto

Re:In a related story, the FCC finds that...

[Solder Fumes (797270)]

That was VERY lame. Did you just give up after the second word, yet kept typing for some reason?

cool

[honold (152273)]

now the 2.4ghz phones get to interfere with their own connection!

effect on health

[v1x (528604)]

I'd like to see the 'chief complaint' data from the main healthcare provider there before and after this massive wireless installation. It will be interesting to track any changes in the types and occurences of certain types of illnesses to see what kind of effect some of our new technologies are having on our health.

five years ago...

[remove office (871398)]

five years ago, dartmouth was considered the most wired campus in america. and that was a good thing. two years ago, dartmouth was considered the most unwired campus in america. and that was a good thing. as somebody who lives in the town (hanover) and gets wifi reception all over the place, i'd say it's a good thing. of course that's just from a leeching standpoint. unfortunately they'll be switching away from assigning real ips via wifi soon...

They left out Vocera

[xinu (64069)]

I work for the reseller Networked Information Sytems [netinfosystems.net] that sells them all their Cisco gear. I was one of the shmucks to go and flash all the IOS images and config the vlans, etc.

The article leaves out some cool stuff like they use Vocera [vocera.com] which act like StarTrek communicator badges. I get a kick out of asking where a specific person is and because of the aceess point they are connected to the computer answers back with their location and if you would like to call them, all while walking across the campus. And they also leave out the fact that they don't bother using any security on their 802.11 though.

Re:What? Cell phones?

[the unbeliever (201915)]

Which are commonly abbreviated "WAP", at least where I come from.

Re:Free registration required???

[CokeBear (16811)]

You don't have to throw it away. You could keep it for the next one...