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S. Korea Considers Using Armed Robots Along DMZ

Posted by Zonk on Sat Apr 09, 2005 07:28 PM
from the worked-in-robocop dept.
Robotics Science
Slicker writes "S. Korea and N. Korea (aka the ROK and DPRK, respectively) share the most heavily fortified border that has ever existed. Now the ROK is considering deployment of armed robots." Not expected until sometime in the 2010s. From the article: "Robots with weapons mounted on their frames are each expected to be able to observe from 2 and 1 kilometers during the day and night, respectively, and will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."
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  • The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:29PM (#12189956)

    From the article:


    "The ministry is considering robots which could detect, trace and hit targets automatically or be controlled remotely by operators," said Col. Shin Byung-chul of the ministry public affairs office.


    Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

    Doesn't sound like the best of ideas. Also from the article:

    ...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras.


    Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If there was an uncaring, twitchy finger robot guarding the border, would try and cross it?

      Thought not.

      A robot is perfect for the job, just as along as it only shoots IN the DMZ and can be shut off with a flip of a switch.
        • Both countries are somewhat equal in their technology, and so is the rest of the world.

          If you're referring to North and South Korea, the technology gap is actually enormous. North Korea makes up in numbers what it cannot do in technology. For example, the best fighters that the North can muster is about 20 or so MiG-29s. There are perhaps 350 or so other fighters, but those are largely MiG-17, -19, and -21, with a few -23s thrown in for good measure. These would face off against a couple dozen F-15K a

    • Robot Apocalypse of Nature is one step closer (Score:5, Insightful)

      by idonotexist (450877) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:40PM (#12190011)
      The DMZ is a wildlife paradise [nationalgeographic.com] --- hopefully the wildlife is not extinguished by armedbots because the wildlife merely moves throughout the DMZ. I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.
      • I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.
        If it's anything like most engineers' experience with technology development...
        The original proposal was for a fully functional AI that could positively identify the target type, the threat level, and respond appropriately. It would include lethal and non-lethal force responses for enemy targets, as well as not disturb civilians or wildlife that wander through the area. The AI would require a team of 30 engineers and 16 months to fully develop and test.
        But of course to save on costs, management decided to go with a simpler and cheaper AI they feel will meet the customer's needs: "If it moves, kill it"

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Alien Being (18488) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:43PM (#12190046)
      Still, it's probably a better idea than landmines.

      • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by TapeCutter (624760) on Saturday April 09 2005, @09:48PM (#12190621) Journal
        Yes, it's much better now that the land mines can chase you! The DMZ is a human free zone full of mines, anyone stepping into it is shot at from watch towers on either side. From the stories in the media it appears to be so effective that anyone trying to escape the North usually does so by crossing the border into China. The problem is not the technology, the problem is that this type of behaviour is considered normal for nation states.
        • The problem is not the technology, the problem is that this type of behaviour is considered normal for nation states.

          It isn't considered normal.

          The problem is that the leadership of North Korea is completely insane, and always has been. They starve their own people to death in order to prop up their army as a threat to South Korea.

          You said it yourself: People are willing to risk their lives to escape to China, which is hardly a paradise. That ought to tell you what a nightmare life in North Korea is.

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Bonhamme Richard (856034) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:47PM (#12190071)
      Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)? Doesn't sound like the best of ideas

      From what I've heard about the DMZ in Korea, there aren't any civilians. Most S. Koreans don't want to live that close to where the invasion will come from (if/when it comes) and the N. Koreans aren't allowed to live that close to anywhere where they could escape. National Georaphic actually did a report about how this made the DMZ in Korea one of the worlds most impressive wildlife reserves...

      ...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras. Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

      Eletric fences may work great against crime etc, but as a military option... a fence isn't going to stop a tank, or even a really determined group of foot soldiers. The Atomic Bomb was unproven, scary, risky and sci-fi, but it saved the lives of an estimated 1 Million Marines/U.S. Army, and an untold number of Japanese.

      (Yes, I would argue that it saved Japanese lives, based on Iwo Jimi, Okinawa, etc, Japanese soilders would have fought for every inch of Japan, and likely would have destroyed the country in the process, but this is an arguement for another post...)

      The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way. Automated defences are replacable, but our military men and women are not.

      • Life on the DMZ (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Infonaut (96956) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Saturday April 09 2005, @11:23PM (#12191111) Homepage Journal
        The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way.

        Agreed. Perhaps many Slashdot readers don't really understand what the DMZ is like. In the 1980s and 90s, live ambushes were a fact of life along the DMZ (they may still be, but I'm no longer in the Army so I don't have inside info about it). The North Koreans for decades have poked and prodded [66.102.7.104] the border: They've sent infiltrators into South Korea, have created elaborate tunnel systems below the DMZ, and attempted to assassinate the South Korean president, among other provocations. Troops stationed along the DMZ for good reason keep an extraordinarily high state of readiness. Over 100 Americans have died along the DMZ since the armstice (I don't have figures for South Korean soldiers).

        So while from the comfort of Ft. Livingroom, it's easy to say that using armed robots to patrol the DMZ is a bad idea, the soldiers on the ground are probably pretty happy about the notion. That's not to say that the robots will work as advertised, or that they should replace existing defenses. The South Korean government may be motivated by cost considerations, but if the end result is that fewer South Korean soldiers are likely to die in the line of duty, it seems worth trying out some form of automated defense.

        • So while from the comfort of Ft. Livingroom

          Hey, don't insult Ft Livingroom, home of the 101st Keyboard Division under the command of General Twenty T. Hindsight. Best unit ever.

          • The reason that Japan did not surrender immediately after the bombing of Hiroshima was that it took some time for the central government to realize what had happened. They learned fairly quickly that there had been a major air strike on Hiroshima, but the extent of the damage was not out of proportion to previous air raids on Japanese cities. US bombing had already caused a great deal of damage to major Japanese cities, including Tokyo. Incendiary bombing was very destructive since at the time most buildin

          • Not entirely true (Score:5, Interesting)

            by xswl0931 (562013) on Sunday April 10 2005, @01:27AM (#12191552)
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hi roshima_and_Nagasaki Others contend that Japan had been trying to surrender for at least two months, but the US refused by insisting on an unconditional surrender--which they did not get even after the bombing, the bone of contention being retention of the Emperor.[13] (http://www.nuclearfiles.org/hitimeline/1945.html) In fact, while several diplomats favored surrender, the leaders of the Japanese military were committed to fighting a 'Decisive Battle' on Kyushu, hoping that they could negotiate better terms for an armistice afterward--all of which the Americans knew from reading decrypted Japanese communications. The Japanese government never did decide what terms, beyond preservation of an imperial system, they would have accepted to end the war; as late as August 9, the Supreme Council was still split, with the hardliners insisting Japan should demobilize its own forces, no war crimes trials, and no occupation. Only the direct intervention of the Emperor ended the dispute, and even after that a military coup was attempted to prevent the surrender (although it was easily suppressed).

    • IFF (Score:4, Insightful)

      by GuyMannDude (574364) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:50PM (#12190098) Journal

      Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

      Well, no, but that wouldn't be necessary. I'm sure the robots would use some form of Identification Friend or Foe [IFF] [globalsecurity.org] method. I'm not saying those arne't foolproof but that doesn't really require any type of automatic target recognition (ATR) or image recognition software [quantumpicture.com].

      Note, I'm not saying that IFF makes these robots a great idea. I'm just pointing out that the idea isn't completely idiotic.

      GMD

      • Re:IFF (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Kadin2048 (468275) <slashdot@kadin.xoxy@net> on Saturday April 09 2005, @11:11PM (#12191053) Homepage Journal
        An excellent point. Something which I don't think is discussed enough, especially in relation to the (IMO lame) arguments over Predator drones, is that aircraft shoot at each other all the time when there is no possible way of observation except through some equipment-mediated method.


        With over-the-horizion air-to-air missiles, satellite-guided bombs, and long range artillery, there are lots of situations where a human being can be there at the weapon pulling the trigger and have the exact same knowledge that someone in a bunker 5,000 miles away might have. And quite possibly less. And quite certainly they're a lot more distracted/frustrated/tired/sweaty than someone who's entire job that day is to fly the [bomb/drone/artillery shell] to its target on a computer screen.


        With the exception of infantry and special operations units, who still get to meet their enemies up-close and personal on a regular basis, many groups of warriors on the modern battlefield never see their adversaries with the naked eye, and hunt, engage, and destroy them through the intermediary of a computer or other electronic viewer. UAVs, taking one example, just take the wire between the camera/sensor on the outside of the aircraft (i.e. the FLIR) and the pilot's display, and extend it from 15' or so, to a few thousand miles. The decision is still being made the same way.

    • I know this is a technology centric website but let me say, as someone who has worked in the military with pretty high-tech gear, you guys are overestimating military technology. Some of you out there might say "But I seen military technology work all the time." Well that's nice, but I've seen how the triumvirate of scientist/engineer contractors, military officers and shitty technology can come together to make a terrible economic and time wasting mess.

      I state the overestimation for a number of cynical re

  • OSQ (Score:5, Funny)

    by roman_mir (125474) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:31PM (#12189976) Homepage
    "The battles of the future will not be fought on a battleground or at sea, they will be fought in space. Or at the top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forward today, your duty is clear, to build and maintain those robots. Thank you."

  • Circle? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xshare (762241) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:31PM (#12189977) Homepage
    "will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."

    Screw the armed robots, I just wanna see how they pulled this off!
    • obviously, the circle is on a cone.

    • Re:Circle? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Linker3000 (626634) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:41PM (#12190032)
      In a spirit of mutual understanding, and in order to establish a tentative cross-border relationship, it was agreed several years ago that South Korea owns and maintains the bottom half of all circles and North Korea keeps the tops, so an 'official' circle in both countries is only 180 degrees and anyone caught drawing a full 360 degree circle is fined or sent for re-education. If you want a complete 'western-style' circle (or circular object), you have to send your part-work to the ministry of circumferences (MoC) in the opposite country where it is assigned to a worker for completion - this really frustrates infant schoolkids who draw pictures including a bright yellow sun.
  • Maybe they'll have robots in place by then, but it's more likely that Kim Jong Il will be dead or missing and the south won't have to worry about the north... Then again, who knows...
    • If the bird flu problem in North Korea cannot be contained, then DMZ robots would take a back seat to the greater problem of widespread infection, pandemic throughout Korea:

      Concerning the North's efforts to contain bird flu, the ROK has been asked [xinhuanet.com]to help/send assistance to the North. The threat of bird flu (H5N1) [newstarget.com] and the resulting destruction of an important food source does not bode well for the DPRK.

      Perhaps the South's robot technology can lead to robots that can spray disinfectants in the big chicken f

  • Hey Laserlips, your momma was a snowblower! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:35PM (#12189993)
    Johnny Five unavailable for comment.

  • ED-209 (Score:4, Funny)

    by Seek_1 (639070) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:36PM (#12190000)
    Was anyone else really hoping that they'd look something like ED-209 [starshipmodeler.com]?

  • Reminds me of ROBOCOP (Score:5, Funny)

    by vchoy (134429) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:39PM (#12190008)
    quote......Robots with weapons mounted on their frames...

    Robot:YOU have 20 seconds to comply
    man: "What the!?!? But wait... I'm friendly..."
    Robot:YOU have 15 seconds to comply
    man: $&$&#%!!!!! Okay okay I have my hands up
    Robot:YOU have 10 seconds to comply
    man: TURN IT OFF!!!
    Robot:5,4,3...

    • Re:Reminds me of ROBOCOP (Score:5, Funny)

      by LiquidCoooled (634315) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:49PM (#12190090) Homepage Journal
      Soldier: "So what do we do if it attacks us?"

      Scientist: "Just reach behind you, pick up the big pile of shit and throw it at the robot."

      Soldier: "What if that doesn't stop it?"

      Scientist: "Reach behind once more and grab the bigger pile of shit, this time throw it in its eyes - that'll stop it!"

      Soldier: "Hang on, where is all this shit coming from?"

      Scientist: "It will be there, trust me."

  • 2010? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dabigpaybackski (772131) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:40PM (#12190017) Homepage
    If the ROKs are planning on deploying these things by 2010, count on events having made their plans obsolete. The regime in Pyongyang is tottering, while the military balance of power continues to slide ever more in favor of wealthy South Korea.

    A better bet is that by 2010, the principal problem on the Korean peninsula will not be the brittle truce between the two regimes, but the economic crisis caused by South Korea inheriting the crumbling husk to their north. That's a lot of mouths to feed.

    Those robots, assuming the project isn't abandoned, will more likely be guarding the border with China instead.

  • 'social ethics' & warfare (Score:3, Interesting)

    by xiaomonkey (872442) on Saturday April 09 2005, @07:45PM (#12190065)
    I wonder how the 'social ethics' warfare will be effected by using autonomous robotic soldiers.

    On one hand the people of a country using such robots could become less apposed to using military force against another country. That is, no longer will your son/daughter/friends be put in harms way.

    However, for the people in the country being attacked, such machines would probably be seen as monstrous cold killing machines. Something that accidentally below away your 6 year old since it confused him/her for an enemy combatant.
        • It's long past time for us to really bring our armies home. Most of the places we've been involved in the last 100 years have been strictly for american corporations, often going directly against the democratically elceted govts whey they told us off. The mess south of the boarder is directly our doing! "our" dictators have killed more people than the "commies" dictators have. The more old news I read, outside the USA the US acts very evil toward people...if we don't straighten up the "arabs" are the lea

  • The Terrible Secret of Space (Score:3, Funny)

    by mazarin5 (309432) on Saturday April 09 2005, @08:05PM (#12190191) Journal
    How are they going to push anybody down from 2 miles away?
  • South Koreans don't have time to build robots, every single one of them is sitting in front of a PC clicking 100,000 times per second to become a starcraft champion.

  • SWORDS (Score:3, Informative)

    by wordisms (624668) on Saturday April 09 2005, @08:23PM (#12190277)
    Here is a link that describes the Talon robot [defenselink.mil] and the SWORDS project a little more.

  • Well.. (Score:4, Funny)

    by shbazjinkens (776313) on Saturday April 09 2005, @08:31PM (#12190314)
    Anything that will ease tensions between North and South Korea is fine with me.

    I think killer robot patrols are a great start, personally.

  • Cost-saving measures (Score:5, Funny)

    by cgenman (325138) on Saturday April 09 2005, @08:42PM (#12190356) Homepage
    "The robots will be remote controlled," said the South Korean ministry of defense. "Thus allowing for operational efficiencies far beyond what is possible today."

    A reporter raises his hand. "You mean, you're setting up remote call centers?"

    "Yes, we're outsourcing to China. There, thousands of workers costing us just pennies a day will patrol our borders with giant armed robots, thus fulfilling our defense needs and the needs of the Chinese population as expressed through their arts and animation."

    "Any word on the North Korean Reaction?"

    "Yes, and this brings better news." interjects the Ministry of Finance. "North Korea has decided to setup their own robot army and, being years behind everyone else, has decided to outsource to us for their remote defense needs. Now we could simply take their billions of pounds of rice and make a tidy profit," said the Ministry of Finance, "but South Korea is the most advanced nation in the world. We have decided to setup an online community of people willing to pay for the priviledge of protecting a theoretical Kingdom from invading barbarians, inside of a communial, multiplayer environment."

    "A Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game?"

    "Yes, a MMPORPG. A MMPORPG so grand it will make Lineage look like Everquest."

    Everyone in the room laughs, except for the American who looks confused.

    "And you too for just 15 dollars a month can be the last line of defense against a rampaging horde of demons. They're very expensive demons, funded by Satan himself. Demons who want to ravage your women, kill your pets, and give you low-paying jobs without benefits while preventing unionization.

    "As border skirmishes are rare, won't this game be incredibly boring?"

    "People pay to play Star Wars Galaxies, don't they?"

  • Bender units (Score:3, Funny)

    by skingers6894 (816110) on Saturday April 09 2005, @08:45PM (#12190372)
    What they really need is a bunch of Bender units instead. Everyone might learn to lighten up a bit over there...
    • Does anyone REALLY think we are going to let N. Korea to continue to exist in it's current regime.

      Do you really think China would continue to prop up the US dollar and fund America's war machine if we pissed them off? China would kick our American asses back into the great depression for thinking about it. Considering America is:

      • $8 Trillion dollars in debt
      • Dependent on foreign loans, primarily from China and Japan because our leadership can't balance a f'ing checkbook
      • Dependent on China/Korea/Tiawan t

        • Re:Dumbest move ever (Score:5, Insightful)

          by X.25 (255792) on Saturday April 09 2005, @10:02PM (#12190714)
          One problem though. N. Korea is not democratic. So the power of the entire country and it's militery might is in the hands of a few people.

          I always wanted to understand something.

          What is the difference of N. Korean people not wanting military to be used against S. Korea (for example), and Spanish /British/Italian/etc. people not wanting military used against Iraq (for example)? Get real, in democracy is military also in control of few people. You don't put top generals in place if they're not "your men". Anywhere.

          What does democracy have to do with it, when in democracy it all takes one prime minister to decide military goes to Iraq - and thing is done.

    • Re:EMP? (Score:3, Informative)

      by imsabbel (611519)
      EMP works well against electronics, but NOT as well as oceans 11 makes people believe :)

      To make a long story short: If the robots are even lightly shielded against emp, you would need to bring it so close that you could just use a normal bomb and get similar results.


      • When the North has come
        And they're threatening Seoul
        And the States are the ony hope we see
        No, I won't be afraid
        Oh, I won't be afraid
        Standing here, on my side of the
        D-M-Z, so

        * Robot, robot D-M-Z
        By the D-M-Z
        Oh D, D-M-Z, D-M-Z

    • Re:Bad Idea (Score:3, Informative)

      by tftp (111690)
      easily call for an artillery hit

      No need. Any anti-tank weapon made in last 50 years will do the job. For example, PTRS [probertencyclopaedia.com] (designed in 1941) fired a steel-cored 14.5 mm round from a five-round box magazine and could penetrate 25 mm armor at 500 meters. Modern weapons are much more powerful, but even with that PTRS, what is the chance that the robot will recognize a green-painted and green-clothed soldier laying in grass 500 meters away? And what is the chance that the robot wears 25mm armor?

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