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Dayton, Ohio: Free City-Wide WiFi

Posted by timothy on Mon Apr 04, 2005 01:01 PM
from the approaching-normalcy dept.
Wireless Networking The Internet Hardware
_Bunny writes "The City of Dayton, Ohio announced a plan to make all of downtown a WiFi hotspot - and as of last week, the network is live. This makes Dayton the first Ohio city to offer free WiFi access. Approximately one square mile of downtown is now live, including Fifth Third Field, the Oregon District, Webster Station and RiverScape. The WiFi project is a public/private partnership not funded by taxpayers, and comes at no charge to the end user." (According to the linked story at WHIO-TV, the city is actually paying about $5,000 per year, with advertisers picking up the rest of the tab.)
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Dayton, Ohio: Free City-Wide WiFi 50 Comments More /

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  • City Wide? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nasa Rosebuds (867909) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:02PM (#12135681)
    I don't know what you mean by city-wide, but Dayton [google.com] is a big place and I doubt "within a 1-mile radius of downtown" really covers it all. Still, this is cool.
    • Cincinnati is planning the same thing, and having a neighbor that already has it running will probably push this city into finishing up. Wish they had it today, cause its beautiful outside!
    • Hmm... I could scrap my cable modem and set up a Yagi pointing toward downtown Dayton. You think 20 or so elements would get me enough gain from Xenia?

      • Re:City Wide? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by er_head66 (224488) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:37PM (#12136065)
        No, actually you are wrong. This is a great idea. For an extremely minimal fee ($5000), they are providing a useful service to the city centre: free connection for office workers, people in transit and local businesses. This is exactly the direction I think wireless internet should be taking, the idea of blanketing regions with free internet and then seeing if a 'killer app' sprouts up that can take advantage of it. When more cities implement systems like this, hardware developers will feel more comfortable included wifi in PDAs and gadgets, sercure with the knowledge that there is actual network that users can take advantage of. Think GPS with Wifi that will give you a local map. Think VOIP cell phones. Think about the whole city toting OQOs and being mobile.

        In this case, I think it is very smart on behalf of the city to be providing this service and more cities should think about implementing similar plans.
        • This is a great idea.

          I couldn't agree more. Many midwestern cities like Dayton and Cincinnati are experiencing a major problem getting people into their downtown entertainment districts outside of the 8-5, M-F work-week due to explosions in the suburbs. Offering something like this is a great way to improve publicity of the struggling city-centres and attract more revenue downtown. Even if it isn't heavily-used, its mere presence will be a boon to the downtown merchants.

      • You got stuff backwards there.

        The cost is minimal not great, and the added value is HUGE.

        The cost is like 5,000/year - which seems like a lot only to the people that have no idea what a city spends. 5,000/year is nothing to a city. Far less than how much it pays people to clean up a park's statues.

        This however is a HUGE quality of life issue - it makes the city very attractive to a lot of people, grants internet access to some people that could not afford it. Many people can afford $500 one time paym

        • Re:City Wide? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by INetUser (723076) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:55PM (#12136247)
          blanketing regions with free internet and then seeing if a 'killer app' sprouts up that can take advantage of it

          OK, so it's still on the 'build it they will come' notion / gamble then. I still don't see the great need for being connected like that all the time. I see wide open, anonymous access for hackers, virus authors and identity thieves. Of course nearly any WiFi access point qualifies for that.

          I also see a viable network for distributed RFID readers to access their database back ends to make for greater ease in people tracking. I see web cameras, rather than the more costly dedicated units, all over the place, and the US becoming like the UK. I see the back end capability for the advertisement boards like in the Minority Report movie.

          All of these things are intrusive and to my mind not good. And I'm by no means a luddite. I can just see no good coming from this. Granted other than reasonable free Internet connectivity.

          • Re:City Wide? (Score:4, Interesting)

            by kwerle (39371) <kurt@CircleW.org> on Monday April 04 2005, @03:32PM (#12137351) Homepage Journal
            I still don't see the great need for being connected like that all the time.

            There isn't. But it is fantastic to have it available anytime and anywhere you want it.

            I see wide open, anonymous access for hackers, virus authors and identity thieves. Of course nearly any WiFi access point qualifies for that.

            For that you can just go to your local library. Nothing new here - just easier access.

            I also see a viable network for distributed RFID readers to access their database back ends to make for greater ease in people tracking. I see web cameras, rather than the more costly dedicated units, all over the place, and the US becoming like the UK.

            Do you also see aliens? Seriously, you're just FUDing here.

            I see the back end capability for the advertisement boards like in the Minority Report movie.

            Specifically: when he walked into a store, he was greeted by name and asked whether or not he like the last thing he purchased. ie: he entered someone's personal property (the store), and the security/customer system identified him. Which is no different than having a guard/service rep at the entrance asking for your id and greeting you, except that it is automated. You don't like it, don't go in the store. It is private property.

            All of these things are intrusive and to my mind not good. And I'm by no means a luddite.

            All of those things are ONLY in your mind. All that is being offered here is city-wide WIFI. If that make you nervous, GET OUT NOW. There is already city-wide cellphone access. There is nearly Nationwide cellphone access. There is no difference between cellphone access and wifi access in terms of what they can do (allow you to connect to a network and send/receive data).

            Get over your luddite self.

            I can just see no good coming from this. Granted other than reasonable free Internet connectivity.

            And there you've just explained it. The only thing coming from this is reasonable free Internet connectivity. So you have nothing to worry about.
      • In these tight economic times, why would a city consider it a wise move to spend tax payer monies on project like this just escapes me.
        1. High-speed internet for poorer people who can barely even afford a PC. It's a pretty cheap way to offer self-improvement benefits and otherwise "look good" among some of the poorer voters.
        2. Bringing "customers" into the WiFi hot zone to patronize the local business just because they have connectivity there.

        Is it really THAT expensive to install and operate a city-wide w

          • Wright-Patt's SAC sqaudron (B-52's) was dispersed to Minot AFB and elsewhere well before the Cold War concluded (although doubt that had much of an impact on the Soviet's targetting plans). The SAC squadron was always a relatively small part of the base's function. You could work there for years and the only B-52 you might see would be flying overhead. It was, and is, a large logistics and research management facility. The Materiel (or is Logistics these days?) Command is headquarted there, as well as Sy

  • History in the making (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anita Coney (648748) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:03PM (#12135700)
    This is a BIG event in history. Quite possibly the largest event ever. For the first time in history, there is actually a good reason to live in Ohio!

  • Hopefully... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jessecurry (820286) <jesse@jessecurry.net> on Monday April 04 2005, @01:04PM (#12135702) Homepage Journal
    ...this will become a model for other cities. I know how valuable my WiFi connection on campus and in my neighborhood has become. I would love to be able to sit downtown and know that I have internet access available.
    • I would too, in fact, I can definitely see making moving decisions in the future based on whether or not wifi is freely available in the municipality.

      I just hope this isnt something we look back on and say, "I really wish that ended up working."

    • Re:Hopefully... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by funk_doc (738861) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:31PM (#12135998) Homepage
      I'm surprised that anyone here at /. would want municipal WiFi, other than the ever eluding Free Lunch. Lets take a look at some of the problems that will arise:

      Static IP and Port Forwarding. I'm sure that many of you forward ports through your router/firewall for certain applications (http, ftp...). I can guarantee that the municipality will not support this feature, and it would be impossible to get a static ip. Once the municipality monopolizes the market, there will be no competition from the private sector. You can't compete with free. While private companies in other areas offer new features, lower price and more bandwidth (they have to compete, remember) you will be stuck paying high prices (taxes) for a slow connection. While the idea of other people who don't use the internet paying for your BitTorrent downloads seems like a great idea, it will cost you more in the long run.

      Censorship. Once this municipality has the power to decide what you can and can't view on the internet, do you really think that it would never be abused. Some religious group will donate large amounts of money to a campaign, and the politician will have to repay that group with censorship legislation.

      Internet access may seem high right now, and it is. Competition is real, prices have and will continue to go down as features are being added. My Comcast connection used to cost $59/mo, now I have more bandwidth and it's only $20/mo. Government is never as efficient as the private sector, it will cost everyone much more to let the government supply WiFi rather than a private company. Also, when was the last time you heard of a government program living up to it's promise? Do you think that this would be any different?
  • It's cool that they're doing this, but the problem is, there's not really much reason to go downtown in Dayton. They just built the new ballpark, but other than that, it's really a pretty crappy place.

  • Parking Lot LAN party! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Cruithne (658153) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:04PM (#12135711) Homepage
    Lets all do a parking lot lan party!

    Pay 4 bucks to park 24 hours, sit in your comfortable car with a laptop, and game it up on a free network... if only wireless didnt completely and totally suck for gaming :D
    • Yeah, but you can do this without free wi-fi, just make a well....LAN(LOCAL area network). You can easily make a laptop a router or just buy a router with a decent broadcast range. Going through the internet seems a bit wasteful to communicate with someone who is 4 feet from you...

  • Advertisers? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by crow (16139) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:05PM (#12135718) Homepage Journal
    How do advertisers push their ads to the WiFi users?

    • Government spaces (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Shivetya (243324) <shivetya.archonon@com> on Monday April 04 2005, @01:08PM (#12135752) Homepage
      most likely they get to advertise through other means, like stuffing fliers into mailings or hanging their company name on official web pages related to the project. Of course you have lots of little antenna around and the support crews can be branded as well.

      Plus being government there are probably some under the table considerations like zoning issues, fees, and similar. Remember a government providing an incentive or discount is not spending any taxpayer money. That is similar to what Washington does by labeling as a program spending cut the simple fact of not increasing the allocation of funds to it.

  • Legal Issues... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by timtwobuck (833954) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:06PM (#12135725)
    So what happens in any legal suit where there is unmonitored, illegal activity taking place over this network? Is the city liable?

    Is the city monitoring the traffic to prevent kids under the age of 18 from viewing illicit material?

    Will the RIAA come after them if someone uses this hardware to download illegal songs?

  • A little skimpy on the details. (Score:3, Informative)

    by XxtraLarGe (551297) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:07PM (#12135740) Journal
    For $5000, it sounds like a real bargain. The question is, how do advertisers make money on this to pick up the rest of the cost? I'll bet its not too long before the advertisers bail, and the city ends up picking up the tab. Any bets?
  • This is cool as Next Month is the Dayton Hamvention. I bet there will be alot of MOBILE Echolinkers! :D
  • I don't know if you've ever been to dayton (i went to UD), but I'm not sure I'd use the word "city" to describe it. I went to school there, and if I remember the Oregon district was tough to find because if you blinked at the wrong time you may miss it. Don't get me wrong, this is definately cool, but just keep in mind that Dayton isn't exactly a thriving metropolis.

  • Advertising (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Amazing Fish Boy (863897) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:09PM (#12135754) Homepage Journal
    I don't use hotspots, really, but anyone know how the advertising works? Is it like the old free-dialup schemes where you would always have an ad on screen? You would have to install a program to get access. If so, this probably wouldn't be compatible with Mac or Linux?

    Can't find this in TFA, all I can get is:

    "HarborLink will basically offer some advertising to the end user to offset the cost that would normally have been passed on to the user. This allows the service to be offered at no cost.
    • Just a guess, but I would imagine that access goes through a proxy, and the advertisers pay for ads on the proxy. Either they replace banner ads (not sure if this is even legal or not), or they just have it so that whenever you go to a site, you get a page with an ad that then redirects you to your site.
      This might not even be that bad of a thing if the majority of the ads came from stores in the area, people would get (semi) relevant ads for stores in their immediate location, and could even help the econ

  • Mirrored links (Score:4, Informative)

    by winkydink (650484) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Monday April 04 2005, @01:09PM (#12135755) Homepage Journal

    _Bunny [networkmirror.com] writes "The City of Dayton, Ohio [networkmirror.com] announced a plan to make all of downtown a WiFi hotspot [networkmirror.com] - and as of last week, the network is live [networkmirror.com]. This makes Dayton the first Ohio city to offer free WiFi access. Approximately one square mile of downtown is now live, including Firth Third Field [networkmirror.com], the Oregon District [networkmirror.com], Webster Station [networkmirror.com] and RiverScape [networkmirror.com]. The WiFi project is a public/private partnership not funded by taxpayers, and comes at no charge to the end user." (According to the linked story at WHIO-TV, the city is actually paying about $5,000 per year, with advertisers picking up the rest of the tab.)

  • For the randroids that will start bitching about this new network and how it prevents private companies from creating viable, competing WiFi networks in Dayton.

  • Are the telecoms asleep?? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by the_rajah (749499) * on Monday April 04 2005, @01:10PM (#12135769) Homepage
    I'd think they be all over this like a duck on a Junebug as they in some of the other cities where the municipality tried to provide this service and got stomped all over. Perhaps Dayton is more on the ball and managed to present a fait accompli. Good for them!

    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
    • The telcoms have no problems with WiFi hotspots because the city pays for the connection that is feeding the WAP. As far as they are concerned, the city is just another customer. Where they have a problem is when the city tries to compete with them by providing the broadband connections themselves.

  • Corpus Christi TX just did this (Score:3, Informative)

    by alispguru (72689) <bane.gst@com> on Monday April 04 2005, @01:11PM (#12135780) Journal
    See "a herf="http://www.downtowncorpuschristi.com/wiki/DM D/WiFiCity">here. It's free for now and covers the whole downtown area.

  • Not the smartest idea this... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by suitepotato (863945) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:13PM (#12135807)
    ...letting the government provide your electronic information access is like letting the tax authorities be your bank and accountant. What was that phrase I was looking for..? Oh yes, It's the fox guarding the henhouse.

    AFAIC, it's for nothing unless you use secure tunnels and proxies to keep them from snooping on you. No, this isn't tinfoil hate time. This is plain old reality. I love my country, but I fear my government as I should. I can't see the same dingbats who can't get water fountains in the parks fixed within five years as being trustworthy with a cordless phone never mind my Internet access. No thanks.

  • The big unanswered question... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fm6 (162816) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:22PM (#12135899) Homepage Journal
    How many users can a free public WiFi network handle before it's saturated and becomes unusable?

  • Uhm.. ok (Score:4, Interesting)

    by geoffeg (15786) <(geoffeg) (at) (sloth.org)> on Monday April 04 2005, @01:25PM (#12135924) Homepage
    Have you ever been to downtown Dayton? It's not exactly a hot bed of internet users. There's very little residential and most of the businesses are most likely not of the internet-based variety. I think a different city would have benefited more.

    Although there *is* Mendelsons. Where old stuff from the Wright Patt air force base goes to die.. a huge warehouse..

  • Dayton and the Universe (Score:3, Informative)

    by thomasa (17495) on Monday April 04 2005, @01:54PM (#12136240)
    Edgar Cayce once said that Dayton, Ohio was the center of the universe. Maybe it was at one time. It was the home of 5 fortune 500 companies, it was the home of the (generally accepted) inventors of the first powered flight machine called the aeroplane. It was important to the computer industry - NCR is still here and U.S. Navy Bombe used in code breaking was built here. But the automobile which was very connected to Dayton Ohio through General Motors and its divisions helped depopulate the city. The surrounding county is doing fairly well however. Montgomery county which contains Dayton, Ohio has a population of 550,000. Dayton, Ohio has a population of 166,000. Dayton proper used to have a population over 200,000.

  • not sure (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jafac (1449) on Monday April 04 2005, @02:32PM (#12136626) Homepage
    I'm all for making wi-fi highly and widely available, but what happens when someone comes along and uses this as a way to censor content, or worse, gather private information? What happens when some Free Market Fundamentalist gets elected in Dayton, and hands over the whole shebang, built at public expense, to a private operator?

    Build it, sure, but when you add-in controls to prevent these kinds of abuses, it's going to make the whole operation look less efficient (thus validating the claims of the Free Market Fundamentalists).

  • Goin' to Visit Grandpa! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Aetrix (258562) on Monday April 04 2005, @06:45PM (#12139261) Homepage
    Maybe I will go visit my grandfather in Dayton now...

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