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More Cell Processor Details And First Pictures
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Feb 07, 2005 06:22 PM
from the never-a-good-time-to-buy-a-computer dept.
from the never-a-good-time-to-buy-a-computer dept.
slashflood writes "After reading two articles on slashdot about the Cell architecture and another one that criticizes the extensive roundup of the STI patents, I found the first pictures of the Cell core. It seems that at least some predictions were true. Seeing is believing." mtgarden points to this ZDNet article which says that the "first version of the chip will run at speeds faster than 4GHz. Engineers were vague on how much faster, but reports from design partners say 4.6GHz is likely. By comparison, the fastest current Pentium PC processor tops out at 3.8GHz." (More below.)
Hack Jandy writes "Anand Shimpi has some details about the upcoming Cell processor (PS3) in his personal blog. According to Anand, "Rambus announced that the new Cell processor uses both Rambus XDR memory and their FlexIO processor bus. Because Rambus designed the interface for both the memory controller(s) and the processor interface, the vast majority of signaling pins are using Rambus interfaces - a total of 90% according to Rambus." Hasn't Rambus been showing up a lot again recently? The fact that Cell uses XDR has been widely speculated, but the fact that it will also use the Rambus bus signalling is something completely new."
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Pictures? (Score:5, Funny)
Apple's connection to the Cell processor (Score:4, Interesting)
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Cell (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cell (Score:5, Interesting)
We're talking about a single-core POWER5 design (because of the SMT).
But 221mm^2
Still, I guess this means the next PowerMac G5 will be using processors with SMT finally.
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Re:Cell (Score:5, Informative)
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Cell's PowerPC core is in-order not out-of-order (Score:5, Informative)
The PowerPC core in the Cell prototype chip is NOT a Power5, as speculated here. According to IBM, this core was designed from scratch for this application. One critical difference is that the new pipeline executes instructions in strict program order rather than reordering instructions to improve throughput as is done with Power5.
Also, IBM has not described the core as "simultaneous multithreaded", just "multithreaded." I presume from this that the multithreading is coarse-grained-- only one thread is active at a time, unlike Power5 which can execute instructions from two different threads in the same cycle.
The logic design for the Cell CPU was optimized for higher clock speeds in a given process than Power5 can achieve. This is a good tradeoff for more linear multimedia algorithms, but reduces effective throughput on other types of code.
I think it's reasonable to suppose that if Apple were interested in using the Cell architecture, it would prefer to use a version of the design that includes a Power5 core in place of the one in the Cell prototype.
. png
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Re:Cell (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Cell (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cell (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Cell (Score:5, Funny)
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Cell is not an x86 competitor. (Score:4, Insightful)
The cell processor is only really fast when the spus are in use, which means 32-bit non-branching floating-point arithmatic. For anything involving integer math, flow control, or uneven memory access, the SPUs defer to the main processor. I'm sure IBM put a decent processor in there, but it doesn't sound like it's anything revolutionary, and there's only the one.
What does this get you? -- A processor that is really good at decoding mpeg, rendering graphics, maybe approximating the physics of flying dragons. It is not a fast general purpose processor. Operating systems, word processors, databases, these are all integer tasks, and much more-so they are branch tasks. Scientific computation - this requires double-precision floating point. Photoshop is about the only piece of non-multimedia software that might be able to take advantage of this.
The end result is that this will likely be a great chip for set-top boxes of all sorts, maybe even for video-editing workstations. A G5/pentium replacement it isn't; that's a different ball game.
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Re:I wonder.... (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft has consistently overwhelmed the fastest processors on the market and I am confident that with the right bloatware they will continue to do so.
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Re:Cell (Score:4, Insightful)
Amazing how fast those i386 processors were at doing absolutely nothing at all.
Assign your Linux box a task or two and all of a sudden faster CPU's become appealing.
My C=64 was a bad motherfucker, right up until the point I wanted to do some serious number crunching on it (or play games.) The minute I decide that there's more to life than interacting with the operating system on an 80x25 character wide CUI
Plus I bet it plays a mean game of Doom III.
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Re:Cell (Score:5, Insightful)
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PS3 (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:PS3 (Score:5, Insightful)
4GHz cell != 4GHz P4 != 4GHz Opteron != 4GHz G5
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Umm... this was posted under Games? (Score:3, Interesting)
We flame Intel for touting speed... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:But flaming Intel is fun! (Score:4, Informative)
Back in the day, RISC was important because it allowed pipelining, the ability for a chip to be doing multiple things at once. Like old MIPS chips used to have 8 parallel piplines that took 8 cycles to execute an instruction, giving an effective rate of one instruction per cycle. Couldn't do that with CISC. Well now processors are decoupled from their ISAs. Each of those instructions is translated into a number of micro operations, which are actually what get handled by the processing section. Likewise it means there can be more registers than are exposed by the ISA.
The upshot is that it doesn't matter as much it used to.
However, there are still plenty of people who like to villify Intel for sticking with x86. They declare it to be an olde kludge of an architecture that needs to die and makes things all slow. However when AMD decided to stick with it, rather than hop on the EPIC bandwagon, they are suddenly heros for maintaining backwards compatibility, which is the whole reason Intel has stuck with x86 for so long.
What's I'm pointing out is the bashing is done against Intel, regardless of what they do. Intel is in the "bad" position, no matter what that is. Like with the cell chips and speed. Slasdotters have been long raging on Intel for making a design that has higher MHz but less performance per MHz (as opposed to AMD). They declare it to be a marketing gimick, etc. Now here we have an article talking about cell chips that are designed to cycle even faster, and taking shots at how slow Intel chips cycle by comparison.
It's not that these people actually have good reasons to like or dislike the decisions, they just dislike Intel and so slam on them.
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Re:Well, cause Intel is a failure (Score:4, Insightful)
As for graphics, those have been a huge success, to the point that nVidia and ATi began copying the idea. Intel's integrated chipsets are a huge hit with business. They keep costs and space down, and high performance grapihcs aren't necessary for office work. The integrated low-end graphics chip is getting to be quite popular.
Networking would be another huge non-processor area that they excell in. If you ask me what kind of NIC I want in a server, Windows, Linux, BSD, whatever, the answer is Intel. Nobody else I know makes cards of the same quality. 3com used to, but not anymore.
Now the x86-64 thing is an interesting one to pick on, because the reverse is true. AMD was being the uninnovative one. They decided that innovation, in this case, was unnecessary and counter productive. They decided to just whack on 64-bit extensions to the x86 architecture, as was done with the 32-bit conversion years ago, and call it good. It offered nothing new in terms of ISA, but that meant backward compatibility.
Intel tried to be radical. EPIC is a neat idea that's been messed with for years and never made practical. You have the compiler do all the work of deciding what runs in parallel, rather than the chip. Makes for helaciously complex assembly, but that's ok, you just need a good compiler, and Intel makes the best.
Well, total non-starter in the desktop market, that's gone to x86-64 and it's not changing. However seems to be working in the high end computation market. We just got in 2 racks of SGI Itanium coputers for one of the research labs. From what I hear, they are badass number crunchers.
Now if you want to talk some major failures, let's have a look at AMD's motherboard situation. When the Athlon came out it was abysmal. AMD couldn't produce a reasonable chipset to support their own processors. It was slow and incomplete, and couldn't deal with basics like AGP 2x. VIA had a full featured chipset, that was full of bugs and couldn't handle hardware like the GeForce in many configurations. ACPI problems plauged all boards.
Now the point here isn't to try and say Intel's better than AMD. The point is, both companies have hits and misses. Some products can be both a hit in one way, and a miss in another. However there's a lot of fanboyism about AMD and hate towards Intel and its not productive.
You should pick your platform based off of informed choices about what performs better for you, and gives you that performance at the best price. If you find yourself having to justify it by attacking the other company, you probably made it for the wrong reasons.
This goes extra for doublespeak like hating on Intel for focusing on MHz, then hating on them again when someone else does so.
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Speed isn't everything (Score:5, Insightful)
I must admit the specs are impressive, but show me the benchmarks!
Re:Speed isn't everything (Score:5, Interesting)
The second is that it's STARTING at 4ghz. It's one thing to say a chip can scale and run at some speed (again, I'm looking at you Intel), but to debut it running faster than the fastest mass produced CPU in the world is something all together different.
Cell should be quite formidable, and I think it will be quite interesting to see what comes of it. I've held the opinion for a few years that computers would move to having a couple of CPUs each running their own task (like in Cell), with one main (quite possibly slower) CPU controlling them all and running the OS (traffic cop, again like in the Cell). While the individual processing units are not general purpose (they are more vector oriented), it should still be interesting to see what comes of this. After all, most things people use high-end CPUs for are (or can be) vector ops, right? Compression, 3D, etc. Wordprocessing and spreadsheets don't tend to need much power. A large generalization, I know, but still... the introduction of the Cell (especiall the way it should be able to "group" its self with other Cell processors in your house) should prove quite interesting even if it turned out to be a failure (which I SERIOUSLY doubt.)
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Re:Speed isn't everything (Score:4, Interesting)
A good analogy tell computer illiterate people is MHZ is kinda like the RPM an engine will do. Higher RPM doesn't necessarily mean higher speed.
Also, its a RISC design. it may well do LESS in each clock cycle than x86.
And aren't we close to the theoretical limit transistors can switch at? If the cell processor starts at such a high clock rate it won't have as much headroom for improvement.
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Re:Speed isn't everything (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Speed isn't everything (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, there's a good use for such comparisons: It tells you that the writer is clueless.
I'd already read enough about the Cell to know that it's more like the PowerPC than it is like an Intel cpu. So, when I read the comparison of its supposed speed and a Pentium's, I immediately knew that the writer hadn't a clue.
Any info around about benchmarks? Those can be misleading, too, in the hands of the wrong marketer. But wit
Re:Speed isn't everything (Score:5, Informative)
The "chip frequency" is determined by
1) how fast can the transistors switch
2) how many FIO4 inverter equivalents (standard measure of logic complexity) there are between the latches.
#1 is just a process technology attribute
#2 is where all the magic is because it is "how much work can take place in one cycle"
#2 is commonly reduced in a technique called pipelining.
General rule: Pipelining increases throughput at the cost of latency.
Branches especially, but in other situations as well: latency becomes a limiting factor
When this happens trading against latency is a bad decision.
For any given ISA you're likely to reach this break point *somewhere*. The i386 architecture has reached it. This is because of the latency of decoding the _complex_ instructions.
A simplier instruction set => incurs less latency penalty => can be pipelined further => can achieve higher clock speeds and accrue performance benefits to additional pipelining.
Intel, though, still has probably the best process technology in the world and as a consequence if Intel were manufacturing these cell processors they'd run even faster.
But simplier instructions tend to do less work. This means you need more instructions for the same task. More instructions might code to larger memory footprints. Larger memory footprints require faster i/o to memory and larger caches to not incur performance penalties. Thus in the end you might gain nothing.
You can see this effect within amd64. Running in 64-bit mode gives you more registers, more registers should mean faster programs, but moving around all those 64-bit variables erases the benefit. (at least in compiler run-time benchmarks that I've seen).
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joint venture (Score:5, Funny)
Hot (Score:4, Insightful)
Some specs from Sony press material (Score:5, Informative)
:
CELL...bringing supercomputer power to everyday life with latest technology optimized for compute-intensive and broadband rich media applications
SUMMARY:
Cell is a breakthrough architectural design -- featuring 8 Synergistic Processing Units (SPU) with Power-based core, with top clock speeds exceeding 4 GHz (as measured during initial laboratory testing).
Cell is OS neutral - supporting multiple operating systems simultaneously
Cell is a multicore chip comprising 8 SPUs and a 64-bit Power processor core capable of massive floating point processing
Special circuit techniques, rules for modularity and reuse, customized clocking structures, and unique power and thermal management concepts were applied to optimize the design
CELL is a Multi-Core Architecture
Contains 8 SPUs each containing a 128 entry 128-bit register file and 256KB Local Store
Contains 64-bit Power ArchitectureTM with VMX that is a dual thread SMT design - views system memory as a 10-way coherent threaded machine
2.5MB of on Chip memory (512KB L2 and 8 * 256KB)
234 million transistors
Prototype die size of 221mm2
Fabricated with 90nanometer (nm) SOI process technology
Cell is a modular architecture and floating point calculation capabilities can be adjusted by increasing or reducing the number of SPUs
CELL is a Broadband Architecture
Compatible with 64b Power Architecture(TM)
SPU is a RISC architecture with SIMD organization and Local Store
128+ concurrent transactions to memory per processor
High speed internal element interconnect bus performing at 96B/cycle
CELL is a Real-Time Architecture
Resource allocation (for Bandwidth Management)
Locking caches (via Replacement Management Tables)
Virtualization support with real time response characteristics across multiple operating systems running simultaneously
CELL is Security Enabled Architecture
SPUs dynamically configurable as secure processors for flexible security programming
CELL is a Confluence of New Technologies
Virtualization techniques to support conventional and real time applications
Autonomic power management features
Resource management for real time human interaction
Smart memory flow controllers (DMA) to sustain bandwidth
Re:Some specs from Sony press material (Score:5, Funny)
Caution: CELL may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
CELL contains a liquid core, which if exposed due to rupture should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Do not use CELL on concrete.
Discontinue use of CELL if any of the following occurs:
* Itching
* Vertigo
* Dizziness
* Tingling in extremities
* Loss of balance or coordination
* Slurred speech
* Temporary blindness
* Profuse Sweating
or
* Heart palpitations
If CELL begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
CELL may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, CELL should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration.
Failure to do so relieves the makers of CELL, Sony Incorporated of any and all liability.
Ingredients of CELL include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.
CELL has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Do not taunt CELL.
CELL comes with a lifetime guarantee.
CELL! Accept no substitutes!
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Re:Some specs from Sony press material (Score:3, Funny)
CELL is a Confluence of New Technologies
sounds like someone was playing with their execuspeak magnets
How they got the die photos (Score:3)
The Sony hype machine strikes again (Score:5, Insightful)
Conspiracy Theory (Score:4, Interesting)
fact #2 Apple has signed up to display at E3 this year- but hasn't published any official info on their site.
fact #3 The Mac is somewhat deficient when it comes to gaming when compared to the Windows PC.
So my speculation is that it is possible that Apple intends to build a new Mac aimed at the gaming market that will be compatible and play Sony's PS3 games- Apple in turn could publish games for the PS3.
Power consumption (Score:5, Interesting)
Once touted as the Intel killer, perhaps Transmeta will finally have its day.
Missing the point (Score:5, Informative)
There seems to be alot of confusion surrounding the Cell chip. This is not "just another processor", and it certainly has little to do with clock frequencies - the Cell is a whole new architecture, which might just be a glimpse into the future of computing.
To begin with, it might be useful with some background on the ps2 architecture - there are a couple of really great in-depth articles at Ars Technica [arstechnica.com]; Sound and Vision: A Technical Overview of the Emotion Engine [arstechnica.com] and The PlayStation2 vs. the PC: a system-level comparison of two 3D platforms [arstechnica.com].
What made the ps2 so awesome was that it was custom-built specifically for multimedia-processing, which requires completely different processing environments than general-purpose computing. Normal PCs are made for computing where you have a large number of instructions working on a small data-set (such as a spreadsheet) - this requires large data-caches close to the CPU, while instructions are streamed continually from RAM. Media-processing is the other way around; you have "simple" operations (like doing the calculations for a single pixel), which are run on a large set of data - so you wouldn't really need any data-caches. The ps2 did exactly this; it removed almost all the caches (only a few tiny ones were left), but it had a totally insane bus bandwidth. To borrow an analogy from the mentioned Ars Technica article:
"Here's a goofy example to help you visualize what I'm talking about: imagine a series of large buckets, connected by pipes to a main tank, with a cow lapping water out of each bucket. Since cows don't drink too fast, the pipes don't have to be too large to keep the buckets full and the cows happy. Now imagine that same setup, except with elephants on the other end instead of cows. The elephants are sucking water out so fast that you've got to do something drastic to keep them happy. One option would be to enlarge the pipes just a little (*cough* AGP *cough*), and stick insanely large buckets on the ends of them (*cough* 64MB GeForce *cough*). You then fill the buckets up to the top every morning, leave the water on all day, and pray to God that the elephants don't get too thirsty. This only works to a certain extent though, because a really thirsty elephant would still end up draining the bucket faster than you can fill it. And what happens when the elephants have kids, and the kids are even thirstier? You're only delaying the inevitable with this solution, because the problem isn't with the buckets, it's with the pipes (assuming an infinite supply of water). A better approach would be to just ditch the buckets altogether and make the pipes really, really large. You'd also want to stick some pans on the ends of the pipes as a place to collect the water before it gets consumed, but the pans don't have to be that big because the water isn't staying in them very long."
So, what does this have to do with the Cell? The Cell takes this concept even further. Cell systems are made up of multiple processors, called APUs (Attached Processing Units), which are connected using an insanely fast data bus. Each APU can be programmed to handle one specific task, and then pass the data on to the next APU for a different task. By doing this, you can just put in more processors to increase the throughput of the system. This works especially good for multimedia processing, which can be pipelined like this pretty easily. Here are a couple of snippets from the Wikipedia entry [wikipedia.org]:
"While the Cell chip can have a number of different configurations, the workstation and PlayStation 3 version of Cell consists of one "Processing Element" ("PE"), and eight "Attached Processing Units" ("APU"). The PE is based on the POWER Architecture, basis of their existing POWER line and related to the PowerPC used by Apple
They already tried this on PS2! (Score:4, Interesting)
Intel not impressed (Score:5, Funny)
You mean like the Itanic? Shoe's on the other foot now, eh?
Re:Intel not impressed (Score:5, Funny)
-- Intel's Caveman Spokesman
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context switching (Score:4, Interesting)
As all the APUs have lots of big registers and significant amounts of private memory, wouldn't that be painful?
All of this... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Xbox (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder, how compatible are the two CPUs' instruction sets? Will Microsoft be able to drop a Cell into a future revision of the Xbox2 and maintain backward compatibility? Could someone theoretically hack a PlayStation3 to run Xbox2 games?
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Re:Rambus kills cell... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Rambus kills cell... (Score:3, Interesting)
RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
- a regular CPU (good for program flow/logic and interdependant operations),
- a vector unit (good for large arrays with no conditionals),
- and 8 stream processors (good for applying the same operations plus flow control to lots of independant chunks of data).
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I did, I'm still confused (Score:4, Interesting)
If you can help clarify some of this for me, thanks.
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Re:I did, I'm still confused (Score:5, Informative)
No. Each Cell has one main (controller) CPU called a PU, and up to 8 seperate vector CPUs called SPEs. The main CPU is a regular 64-bit POWER processor (with SMT --- IBM's equivalent of hyperthreading), while the APUs are very simple processors with a lot of execution resources and insane bandwidth. Such processors are known as "stream processors" in the literature, because they are designed to handle streams of data.
it's just a different brandname, right?
Yes, "AltiVec" (like "G5") is an Apple/Motorola trademark, so IBM can't use it. And you're right, the AltiVec unit is on the PU.
For what purposes is the VMX more suited?
It's there most likely because if you're running some code that isn't suitable for the SPEs, but does need to do vector computations, you don't have to send it off to the SPEs.
Will the SPEs have this same starvation problem?
Potentially, but probably not. Altivec on the G4 was starved because the G4's bus was exceedingly slow. The SPEs are supposed to be on a shared 128GB/sec internal bus, and the Cell has 100GB/sec of bandwidth to main memory.
That each of the SPEs has 256k of private memory to work with?
Yes. In the Cell model, you design your code in "cells". A cell is a clump of code and data that's copied to the SPE's local memory. The code then runs, streaming in additional data from memory, and using the local memory as a workspace.
Can SPEs freely read other SPEs "local memory", or only their own? And who fills up this memory initially, and who deals with it once it's done?
The SPEs local memories are not connected to each other, so each SPE can only read from its own local memory. The memory is filled up by the PU, when a Cell is loaded onto the SPE. The SPE then runs autonomously, and when it finishes, sends the results back to the PU via main memory.
I.E., do the SPEs have access to main or video memory or other hardware, or do they ever require for the CPU to shuttle data to keep them fed?
The SPEs and the PU all talk to a single DMAC, which has access to main memory.
But then the article seems to be saying the is SPE access to memory is limited-- i.e. it can only be done in block load/stores.
Yes. The DMAC, actually, can only read/write in 1024-bit blocks. This isn't really a big deal if you think about it. When a regular CPU reads a memory address, it doesn't read a byte at a time. It loads a whole cacheline at a time. So a P4, for example, usually reads a 128-byte (1024-bit) block at a time from memory anyway.
Do each of the 8 SPEs actually independently load their own instruction streams?
Yes. All the processor units run seperate instruction streams. Each "software cell" runs in its own thread, if you will.
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Re:by comparison... (Score:3, Insightful)
What scope is this?
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
"If you build it, he will come."
If you create a machine so powerful that there's nothing that fully ut
Unlikely. (Score:4, Insightful)
However, from the press release:
Prototype die size of 221mm2
When it comes to chip manufacturing, the cost of a chip is basically a direct function of the area. A 221 mm^2 chip size is pretty damn big; this thing isn't going to be cheap. Even considering IBM's extensive fabrication experience, Sony will probably have to sell this at a significant loss to make the PS3 palatable to gamers.
Granted, this is a prototype, so they can probably shrink it further by production, but it still won't be something cheap. Don't count on being able to buy these cheaply to make your own parallel supercomputer.
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