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Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products

Posted by CmdrTaco on Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:30 PM
from the bytes-in-the-backyard dept.
Wireless Networking Hardware IT
redshield3 writes "Belkin is offering what it is calling "pre-802.11n" products for mass consumers now. CompUSA is reportedly carrying these items in stores. They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g as well as full backwards compatibility and the ability to continue pushing out n-speeds when a 802.11g or 802.11b device is introduced to the network."
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Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products 50 Comments More /

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  • Pre? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:32PM (#11304410)
    Surely that makes it 802.11M?

  • My Clients don't complain about speed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:33PM (#11304414)

    however wifi range is a constant headache for me
      • Don't bother with an omni if you're going to just link up with a friend. Get some used Primestar dishes and build a nice bi-quad antenna on the end where the focal point is. You'll bleed off a lot of power going the wrong direction, you may interfere with neighbors (if you don't care, then that's great), and lastly, you aren't exposing your wireless link to common passers-by with malicious intent.

  • Fry's Electronics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by azadam (250783) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:33PM (#11304415) Homepage
    I saw one of these on the shelf the other day. The price wasn't much higher than for 802.11g options.... my biggest question would be whether a firmware upgrade would necessarily be able to bring these into full 802.11n compatibility once the standard is ratified?

    It would suck to end up locked into a dead-end solution like that, but if it can be patched to become standard.... I might think about trying it out.

    • Re:Fry's Electronics (Score:5, Informative)

      by kanweg (771128) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:37PM (#11304440)
      Well, it seems to work for 802.11g now, which will continue to work once 802.11n is ratified. So, if it isn't much more expensive, you haven't lost much, do you?

      Bert
      • Well, it seems to work for 802.11g now, which will continue to work once 802.11n is ratified.

        The Wi-Fi Alliance issued a press release last October ( "Wi-Fi Alliance Will Not Certify Pre-Standard 802.11n Features" [wi-fi.org]) that says some pre-standard 802.11g products did not meet the final standard. I guess the earliest adapters got burned.

        Other highlights from the press release:

        • The Wi-Fi Alliance will not certify 802.11n products until the standard is ratified.
        • The 802.11n standard will be completed in approx

        • The 802.11n standard will be completed in approximately November 2006.

          If the standard won't be completed until November 2006, standards-compliance doesn't even become a factor for me.

          I'm already pretty happy with my 802.11g gear, but if I were to go buy new stuff, I'd buy pre-N gear known to work together for my current systems. I can't really be bothered to worry about if the gear will be compatible with the "real stuff" almost 2 freakin' years from now... If the standard were right around the corne
    • They are not guaranteeing that they will be firmwire upgradeable. There are 2 standards at the moment and if the wrong standard is chosen and ratified the pre-N stuff will non-firware upgradeable.

    • Re:Fry's Electronics (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Jeff DeMaagd (2015) on Sunday January 09 2005, @01:28PM (#11304715) Homepage Journal
      I think the firmware should be upgradeable, the question is whether Belkin should be trusted. I've avoided buying any of their products after they've made a firewall that deliberately served up adware.
    • As far as I know, the two standards competing for the 802.11n title are hardware-incompatible, so you can't firmware from one to the other (like the US Robotics/Flex debacle with 56K modems). I'm thinking that the release of these pre-n products is a bid to get an installed base of one competing standard to aid in justifying the award of the 802.11n name.

  • Old News (Score:5, Informative)

    by beaverbrother (586749) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:33PM (#11304416)
    This is not new news, they were advertising them in november.

    • Re:Old News (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This is not new news
      You must be new here.
    • Heck, we were using pre 802.11N stuff back in the late 80s. It was so 'pre' it would only work reliably if you plugged the other ends of the antenna into other machines in your network.

  • Real-world speed, though (Score:4, Interesting)

    by invisik (227250) * on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:34PM (#11304425) Homepage
    So what is the real-world speed of these rated-108mbps devices? Half? Third? Anyone tested one yet?

    -m

    • Re:Real-world speed, though (Score:5, Informative)

      by div_2n (525075) on Sunday January 09 2005, @01:20PM (#11304661)
      Google "pre-n review" and you get

      Belkin Wireless Pre-N Router [pcmag.com]

      From this link:

      we measured throughput of 40.7 Mbps at 60 feet from the router (where 802.11g products typically deliver 15 Mbps)

      So at 60 feet, they were getting 40.7 full duplexed, 81.4 half. Considering wireless overhead that must be involved, that isn't bad throughput.

      What is most interesting is that the throughput at 1 foot from the router was actually less than at 60 feet by over 20 Mbps.

  • Here's what they're claiming (Score:4, Informative)

    by scubacuda (411898) <scubacuda&iname,com> on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:34PM (#11304426) Homepage

    Advantages
    • 800% greater coverage than standard 802.11g - Belkin Pre-N provides the industry's best wireless coverage, extending your range with improved reliability and fewer drops.
    • 600% greater speeds than standard 802.11g - Belkin Pre-N provides the industry's fastest wireless connection for gaming, streaming video, Voice over IP, and moving large files efficiently and quickly between all the devices in your networked home.
    • Improved performance of standard 802.11g and 802.11b networking devices - Using a Belkin Pre-N Router or Card with an older 802.11g or 802.11b networking product increases wireless coverage up to 20%.
    • Improved resistance to wireless interference - Belkin Pre-N products sense potential interference and dynamically shift to the clearest wireless channel available.
    • Belkin Pre-N products do not drop to the lowest networking speed in a mixed-mode environment - If a standard 802.11g or 802.11b device is introduced into a Belkin Pre-N network.
    • The Belkin Pre-N product will not drop to the standard 802.11g or 802.11b speeds - Belkin Pre-N products will continue to transmit at a link rate of 108Mbps, a result competing products cannot achieve.
    • Advanced Security - Wi-Fi® Protected Access (WPA) support provides enhanced encryption protecting your wireless network.
    • Pop-up Blocker - 6 months of free pop-up, adware, and spyware stopper
    • Web Content/Parental Control Filter - Web Content/Parental Control Filter 6 months of free built-in parental Control/Web Content Filter provides over 50 fully configurable filters that allow you to block websites and images.


    Are they using real "n" technology? Or is it just their particular flavor of "n"?

    • The N standard isn't even finalizd yet. The problem is -- when someone goes ahead an releases hardware when the standard isn't written, it ties the hands of the working group writing the standard. If I were them I'd tweak something to make the belkin shit (and yes, its shit) worthless :)
      • The firmware upgradable, so unless they made some huge changes to the standard I think Belkin is going to be fine.

        Belkin isn't exactly a huge player anyways. They have a decent market share, but one would assume that Cisco/Linksys and Netgear are much bigger players.
          • Last I was reading of pre-N stuff (a co worker was interested in it) they haven't even settled what frequencies N will use, or how wide the signal will be, these are some pretty big changes that could be made.
  • I've had bad luck in the past with pre-standard equipment, but this one sounds pretty good. It seems to only be missing one of the features of the n standard. I thought N had essentially "wireless switching", in that the wireless bandwidth was not divided when multiple connections were established. If everything else lives up to their hype, this could be a good stop gap solution until the standard equipment comes out 3rd quater this year.

  • I spy... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Realistic_Dragon (655151) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:36PM (#11304437) Homepage
    ...another wireless standard significantly harmed by not-quite interoperable implimentations produced by ass-hat vendors.
    • you're not wrong. at least let's hope this time around they make the relevant stuff flash-upgradable so that when the spec is ratified it doesn't just sit on it's old "pre-N" spec...

      -- james

  • Linux (Score:4, Interesting)

    by maeka (518272) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:38PM (#11304448) Journal
    But can they run Linux? http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=3 3&scid=35&prid=601 [linksys.com]
    • Not sure why this is considered "off-topic." I think it's a good question. Does Belkin let you hack up their OS like Linksys? Cause if so, I'd like to see someone implement the "wireless switching" that 802.11n is supposed to have.

      • Re:Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

        by maeka (518272)
        My point exactly.
        Open source firmware can greatly expand not only the feature set of a piece of hardware, but also its useful lifespan. For a perfect example just take a look at all the features added by Svesoft's firmware for the WRT54G series. (please let's not get into a debate over Svesoft's source publishing practices, I just used them as an example, there are many active projects modifying Linksys firmware)
        Because of Linksys's use of a Linux based firmware we are not dependent on them to patch vulne
  • The question to ask is, are these things field upgradeable when the 802.11n standard is final? The site doesn't answer this question. You could be left with a very expensive b/g router/AP.

    • Re:Stuck at Pre-N (Score:5, Informative)

      by eggboard (315140) * on Sunday January 09 2005, @01:06PM (#11304590) Homepage
      When 802.11n is ratified possibly as late as Nov. 2006, it will likely include speeds at least twice as high as the Belkin product. There are a few different MIMO proposals under consideration, and they will likely be merged with faster speeds and options as optional and a lower speed and tech as mandatory.

      But the problem with Belkin and other MIMO solutions is that even if they turn out to be fully 802.11n compatible, they won't do the highest possible speeds. Those highest speeds will likely not cost any more (and maybe less) than the pre-N/MIMO stuff costs today.

      So EVEN if you'll be able to upgrade MIMO now to 802.11n in 2006--and that's a huge if and no companies are promising this even in the slighest--you won't get the real speed bump that 802.11n promises.

      If you don't need 50 to 70 Mbps of real throughput on your network today, stick with cheap, interoperable 802.11g.
  • There are a plethora of articles out there right now describing the chance you take buying "pre-N" wireless gear. Since there is no N standard yet, none of these companies can claim with any certainty thier product will be N compatable. If you buy one of these products, go in expecting that it won't work with true N when the spec is actually released.

  • SHIT! We're running out of ending letters! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:53PM (#11304521)
    What will happen when we get to 802.11z?
  • Linksys WRT54GX: http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=6 70&scid=35 [linksys.com] is a unofficial pre-N router.
    Anyone want to take a guess why 802.11n takes 3 antenna and 802.11g has two or one?
    • Because 802.11n takes advantage of spatial multiplexing to increase throughput, and that requires multiple antennas.

      The OTHER way to increase throughput is making the protocol more efficient (which 'n' does, as well, which is why belkin is claiming a 600% increase, rather than a 200% increase), or increasing the utilised spectrum (which 'n' does not do).
  • We went through this with 56K modem and 802.11g standards. A vendor's marketing department tries to get the jump on everyone else by introducing equipment that is "pre-standard". People buy them to get the latest whiz-bang capability and either don't care about the consequences or are too clueless to understand them. If the approved standard turns out to be what the equipment uses then the company is home free with an existing market share. If not then marketing beats on engineering to put together a minimu
  • Other manufacturers (Sun, Rio, etc) have released product with a full set of 'features' that, when you go to use them, return a message such as "This feature not yet implemented".

    At least there is some effort to tell people that these aren't up to snuff yet.

    And wouldn't it just be a huge marketing blitz if everyone bought these and they pulled the Sun Microsystems "Oh, you mean you're going to make us support that feature? That'll cost ya..."

    Sorry I'm a bit bitter at manufactures pulling this and I thin

  • Old news (Score:2, Informative)

    by MHobbit (830388)
    NetGear or Linksys already made Pre-802.11N equipment.

    I hope that Linksys will give free firmware updates being how good they are right now.

  • Remember Belkin's popups? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by havaloc (50551) * on Sunday January 09 2005, @01:16PM (#11304649) Homepage
    Remember, this is the same Belkin which randomly tried to sell you Censorware [slashdot.org].

  • More free internet! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sax Maniac (88550) on Sunday January 09 2005, @01:55PM (#11304876) Homepage Journal
    I can't wait.

    My niece was visiting, and for whatever stupid reason, her middle school requires everyone have a laptop. (Insert rant about kids and computers here; apparently, using IM to chat about cute boyz is a new class they didn't have when I was in school. But I digreess.)

    I like to offer my net connection to guests so they can chat on vacation. So I point her to the nearest wall socket and ask if she needs a cable.

    "No, I'm just using the wireless connection. There's like 2 or 3 of them."

    Of course, at the time, I didn't have a wireless connection. But a few of my neighbors do: LINKSYS, LINKSYS, and, uh, LINKSYS.

    So, I'm all for more range. More free net access! And, this means I don't have to let anyone's spyware-ridden box on my home network when they visit.

  • Consumers? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DroopyStonx (683090) on Sunday January 09 2005, @02:03PM (#11304921)
    Anyone else disturbed by the fact that people are referred to as "consumers"?

  • BZZZZTTTTT! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sai Babu (827212) on Sunday January 09 2005, @02:06PM (#11304941) Homepage


    How many read this and said, WOW, I can go a km instead of this lousy 125m range I've got now?

    Visiting the parent referenced product description we learn that the statement, "They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g" is
    UNTRUE!

    What they claim is 800% coverage improvement over 802.11g.

    The most gross correction comes if you note:
    The volume, or coverage, in which the thing will operate may be 800% greater, but volume goes as a cube of length (distance, range, radius, depending on contextual semantics). So your 800% coverage improvement translates to a 200% range increase.

    Add to this the myriad of devilish details which arise in any product comparison and the real world reange increase may be well less than times two.

  • Don't buy from Belkin (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cabalamat2 (227849) on Sunday January 09 2005, @02:08PM (#11304948) Homepage Journal

    Remember, these are the guys who tried to sell you deliberately non-working kit [cabalamat.org].

    I don't buy from Belkin. I hope you choose not to, too.

  • Linksys has the same thing (Score:3, Informative)

    by Wesley Felter (138342) <wesley@felter.org> on Sunday January 09 2005, @03:14PM (#11305314) Homepage
    The WRT54GX [linksys.com] uses the same chips if you'd rather buy from Linksys than Belkin.
    • If it pushes out n-speeds, why is it considered a "pre-n" product?

      Because the 802.11n spec isn't finalized, therefore it isn't 802.11n compliant?

    • Re:I dont understand (Score:5, Informative)

      by Jozer99 (693146) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:39PM (#11304450)
      Because 802.11n is not ratified yet, and will almost definitely change from the draft it is now. What Belkin has done was intergrate some of the proposed improvements that we can expect. However, they may not be in final form, so if the draft changes much, the products will no longer be compatable. This may be as easy to fix as a firmware update or driver download, or it may leave you with a bunch of equiptment that is not compatable with anything else. Also, I am not sure of this, but if 802.11n is already considered a standard, even an unratified one, then Belkin could get sued for using the name if their products do no conform to the final standard.
      • This may be as easy to fix as a firmware update or driver download, or it may leave you with a bunch of equiptment that is not compatable with anything else.

        That's true.

        One thing to keep in mind is that many public wifi spots have spent a lot of money just offering 'b' to customers. They're not going to 'g' very quickly, it seems. How much time are we really talking about before any of them offer 'n'?

        Of course, this says nothing about private wifi spots. In any case, almost all cards, including "pre-'n'
    • If I make some weird cable and transfer data at 100mb, is it ethernet? No, not if it doesn't use the same wires to send/receive data, collision avoidance, etc.

      My guess is that they're not be fully abiding by the IEEE standard. Anyone have any details as to what they are(n't) following?

    • Because the 802.11n standard doesn't exist yet, and could change radically before it is finalized, rendering this current Belkin equipment completely useless for talking to anything but itself at "n speeds"
    • Because all the intervening letters are taken up by other protocols, or proposed protocols, not just wireless speeds.

      For example, 802.11i is an enhanced security protocol, 802.11x is also security related. There's a bunch more.

      Some of the letters are explained here [wikipedia.org]. Still lots of gaps, but they likely fall under the 'proposed protocol, noone's bothered implementing it yet' category.

    • Re:yeah, so why'd they skip all the way N (Score:5, Informative)

      by Ralph Wiggam (22354) on Sunday January 09 2005, @12:57PM (#11304540) Homepage
      Just like IPv5, a lot of proposed standards get shelved for all kinds of reasons. Even though 802.11h never made it to production, the proposal still exists somewhere and naming something else 802.11h would be very confusing to the people involved. Usually we have catchy marketing terms insulating consumers from the technical versioning, but not in this case.

      After 802.11z comes 802.11aa. Other parts of the 802 standard go into the double letters.

      -B

    • That's funny, I'm posting this from a laptop bridged to my network via a Belkin 802.11g AP and strangely my laptop hasn't melted as a result.

      That's more than I can say for the 3 dead ones I can see on my shelf at the moment. (2 linksys 1 netgear)

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