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Full X11-Based Distro For PDAs

Posted by timothy on Tue Jan 27, 2004 07:38 AM
from the mostly-work-safe dept.
Handhelds GUI Software X Hardware Linux
omin0us writes "over at http://cacko.zaurususergroup.com, we are working on a Full X11 based Linux distro for the Sharp Zaurus SL-c7x0/860 series of PDAs. The screen has a usable full VGA resolution of 640x480 and the distro uses Openbox/ROX Desktop as its Native WM. But others such as Fluxbox, Afterstep, and XFCE have been compiled for it and run nicely. You will also find a WIDE variety of compiled apps in the Feed on the Cacko website such as a native GCC Compiler, XMMS, Mplayer, prboom, Gimp, Gkrellm, Abiword and numerous others. Many different screenshots of it in action may be found here. This is truly bringing desktop linux to the PDA. Also, another project that has branched from Cacko Linux is Gentoo for Zaurus. This project, at the moment is based on the Cacko X11 environment, but will eventually become a full Gentoo environment. "It can emerge packages, sync, or create Gentoo packages using the -B switch in emerge." This should be an interesting project to watch."
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  • You will also find a WIDE variety of compiled apps in the Feed on the Cacko website such as a native GCC Compiler

    Maybe it's me, but I find it downright hilarious that they include a compiler with a PDA. Like that's some kind of huge geek selling point for it.

    Geek 1: Yeah, I got Quake running on my PDA. Take that!
    Geek 2: That's nothing! I compiled it on my PDA and *then* played it.

    All the other geeks gather around Geek #2. One of the geek chicks who was with Geek #1 pulls away from him and goes over to Geek #2.

    Yeah... I guess it's that important. Just like that nifty new 64-bit CPU that makes my penis feel bigger than it actually is. Yippie.

    • Well, there's a complete development environment to be run on the Zaurus itself, and it was before we (cacko.biz) actually created our environment.
    • What good reason is there to leave out gcc, if it's simple to make a package of it and there is plenty of disk space?
    • I work at a bank, and own a Zaurus SL-C700. I work full-time in a tech support call center (noon to 11 PM), and am a full-time student. This means when it's late at night, I have plenty of time to work on homework.

      For the past two semesters, all of my programming assignments have been written, built, and debugged on the SL-C700. I'd say it takes me perhaps twice as long to type in code, and GCC runs rather slowly. But the hours would otherwise be wasted. I'm not allowed to put Linux or GCC on Bank computers.

      Portable GCC is indeed useful.
      • Sounds like the perfect use for a LiveCD of Linux and a USB device to save to when done. There are ways to get dev tools on a Live CD. In Morphix, you just make your own custom CD, say of LightGUI, and add the devel minimod. Then you have gcc, make and everything else you need. Save to a memory stick when done and bingo, the PC looks like it was never touched.

        I would unplug from the network though or you might leave a fingerprint on the DHCP server.
        • Man, gentoo on the Zaurus is going to be great when I get done compiling.

          (6 weeks later)
          Hey, I've got a command line now. Time to compile X11.
          (6 months later)
          Hey, I got X compiled, but it doesn't work and I still need a Window Manager.
          (6 months later)
          I got X fixed, I got KDE installed, but damn it's slow. I'm going to compile a smaller WM, like Fluxbox.
          (2 months later)
          Nirvana.
          (6 months later)
          User dead of stress from waiting on compiler.
    • Yeah, and what's the point in dual-booting to Linux, I can do everything in Windows I can do in Linux and more! While we're at it, what's the point in having an mp3 player? I can just listen on my stereo! DVD's, why should I buy them if I can just *imagine things happening*?!?

      Personally, I like the idea of being able to do development work on the target system. So what was your post, funny? or flamebait? :D

    • Maybe it's me, but I find it downright hilarious that they include a compiler with a PDA.

      It's hilarious to you, because you misinterpreted something: you're calling it a PDA. It's a tiny PC, not a PDA. PDAs are tools you use to remember appointments, addresses, etc. PCs are tools you use to get work done, play games, etc. The aim of this project is to treat the Zaurus like a PC instead of a PDA.

      And that makes sense, sort of. The Zaurus is hugely overpowered for use as a PDA. Almost anyone who need

  • I am the founder of Cacko (Score:3, Informative)

    by mirko (198274) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:39AM (#8098488) Homepage Journal
    Make a whois :)
    Glad but surprised to be Slashdotted :)
    • How can it be "redundant" if I funded the project and booked the cacko.biz domain name for Sash, our lead developer, and purveyed the Tomsk lab with hardware and logistics support ?

      Has somebody done it before me ?

  • Interesting project to watch? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ObviousGuy (578567) <ObviousGuy@hotmail.com> on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:41AM (#8098494) Homepage Journal
    Yeah, watching Gentoo emerge packages on a crappy PXA250 is a whole lot of fun, I'm sure.

    Is the Linux desktop really the right metaphor for a palmtop device? Apple knew a desktop was wrong, Microsoft finally figured it out with PPC2002.

    When will the good folks working on these Linux ports figure it out?

    • Re:Interesting project to watch? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MS_is_the_best (126922) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:50AM (#8098533)
      Actually, with a keyboard, as this device has, a terminal with all powerful command line tools (bash, ssh, text editor, IS very usable. Ok, being able to use multiple windows (which don't fit together on 640x480) is not very useful, but the mentioned window managers can do a lot more which can be useful to the geek and on a pda (tabs, proper keybindings etc. etc.)
      • Ok, being able to use multiple windows (which don't fit together on 640x480) is not very useful,

        The earliest macs which popularised the windows (and maybe the Windows) we know and love, used a resolution of 512x384 IIRC. (At 1bpp of course).

    • X11 is not the desktop. X11 provides the layer on which the desktop can run. I can prototype my own desktop on my linux box, reconfiguring FVWM or windowmaker to match the PDA metaphor and then run it on the PDA.


      Hell, having a remote PDA desktop is a killer app. Forgot your contact information? No problem, just page your pda to get it out of sleep mode, and then ssh a new xclient to it.

    • Is the Linux desktop really the right metaphor for a palmtop device?

      Probably not, but is that relevant. Do you think people run X on their Palmtop because they think it makes it a better PDA? I rather expect it's because more because Linux has a vast range of other software that they want to run.

      I run Linux on my Psion 5MX - means that I can hack on my personal coding projects on long journeys without having to lug a huge laptop around. I couldn't do that with the Psion's native OS as it just doesn't
    • Microsoft got it right with Pocket PC 2000. PPC 2002 was just a minor upgrade.

      I do agree that just because you have a 640x480 display (with touchscreen in place of a mouse) does not mean that the standard windowing GUI paradigm (Mac, Windows, X, etc) is appropriate.

      Further, unless widgets and the like can be scaled up (ie 2x) then it would be next to impossible to even tap on them. Imagine a toolbar with 8 buttons in a row, each 2mm in width. I don't think even a perfectly aligned touchscreen can reso
      • Not a Linux user, I take it?

        Window managers are extremely customizable, and by comparison to other operating systems, are even easy to create. There's no need for a tool bar that runs along the bottom of the screen, and no limit to icon sizes. Further, while the standard windowing GUI paradigm may not be appropriate, doesn't mean that SOME Windowing paradigm shouldn't be applied.

        Lumping X with Mac and Windows is a little unfair, considering it's flexibility and their lack of it. It's like saying that t

  • Well... maybe (Score:2, Funny)

    by OctaneZ (73357)
    "This should be an interesting project to watch."

    Well, yes, everything but the three-week bootstrap!

  • Damn,, (Score:5, Funny)

    by vpscolo (737900) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:48AM (#8098521) Homepage
    after seeing those screenhosts my first 2 geek reactions are

    1) Must by gadget to run Linux on
    2) Must get a copy of Lemming and run on GnuBoy

    Damn you slashdot for spending my money and filling my time.

    Rus
  • Mmmm. Definitely the right combination, although on my desktops I prefer to just have rox-filer running rather than the rox desktop. It's great when the n00bs ask where the start menu is ,-}
    There are a couple of openbox/rox-filer desktop screenshots on my site if anyone cares to look - url above.

    I gotta get me one of those zaurus thingees..
  • Disclaimer: I'm a happy Gentoo user myself ;p

    Wonder how long it takes to compile X on a PDA ;)

    Although it would work fine with an existing distcc cluster. Now, imagine a beowulf cluster of PDAs compiling Gentoo!

  • Opie should be mentioned (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:54AM (#8098544)
    I know it's a different project, but people who find cacko interesting might find opie interesting as well.

    http://opie.handhelds.org/

      • Opie != PocketPC (Score:2, Informative)

        by ofels (255261)
        We are in no way trying to imitate PocketPC.
        In fact we concentrate on usability and ease of use which Microsoft does not.

        The only thing similar is that we also use a colorful and comprehensive display and similar applications (today, addressbook, calendar, etc.) but besides this the whole concept is different.

        Oliver
        team Opie

  • Integrated WiFi (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AsnFkr (545033) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @07:55AM (#8098552) Homepage Journal
    If it had WiFi built in I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I know I can add it, but at the cost of one memory slot. Thats a heafty price to pay. Very cool stuff though.
  • There is a very important point which is glossed over in the article...what type of packaging system will be used in the Zaurus X11 distro? Yes I know that it's based on Gentoo and you can emerge software, but it's not a true package management system, like, say, apt-get.

    emerge apt-get!

  • The site isn't responding so I haven't seen anything explaining the derivation of the name but it seems like an odd choice [reference.com]

  • If it had a hard drive... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bcg (322392) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:01AM (#8098577)
    Wouldn't a 4Gb hard disk just like whats in the mini ipod go down a treat in one of these things?

    Combine that with wifi (as mentioned by another poster) and at least laptop battery life expectancy and i would instantly order one.

    I don't ask much :)
    • go look at a fujitsu p1100
      http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce / buildseriesbean.do?series=P1

      LifeBook P1120
      FPCM20101 for $1199
      9 hours possible on one battery

      800 MHz Crusoe(TM) TM5800 processor with LongRun(TM) Power Management
      Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Home Edition
      8.9" wide-format XGA TFT with touch screen
      256 MB memory
      30 GB hard drive
      External USB 3.5" floppy drive
      Built-in multinational4 56K5 V.90 modem
      Integrated 802.11b wireless LAN
      Built-in 10/100 Ethernet
      Quick Point pointin

  • Coming soon to /. (Score:5, Funny)

    by m00nun1t (588082) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:11AM (#8098630) Homepage
    Updates on the only items that HAVEN'T run linux so far:

    - Porting linux to a kitchen blender
    - Porting linux to a carrot
    - Porting linux to the wart on my grandmothers knee

  • It used to be a joke... (Score:3, Funny)

    by alispguru (72689) <baneNO@SPAMgst.com> on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:14AM (#8098646) Journal
    I remember someone's old sig line:

    I run X windows on my wristwatch.

  • zaurus-debian (Score:2, Interesting)

    by damohasi (538874)
    One should mention that there exists a project for porting debian to zaurus already:

    http://pocketworkstation.org/

    Development seems to have stopped in August 2003 but maybe its worth a try - it even claims to enable running evolution just by apt-getting it...

  • I went with a Handera 330 instead (Score:3, Informative)

    by Dr. Manhattan (29720) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `171rorecros'> on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:45AM (#8098828) Homepage
    I got some cash for xmas, and tried to decide what to get to replace my Palm IIIxe. I know someone with a Zaurus SL-5000 (the original developer model, 32MB RAM) and was seriously tempted to find a real Zaurus off eBay. There were just a couple of problems.

    The first is the battery life. I could go weeks on two AAA batteries in the IIIxe, while all these multi-hundred MHz machines have battery lives measured in hours. On an international flight, or when vacationing on the side of a mountain in rural Italy, that makes a difference.

    The second is simple efficiency. On the Palm, apps execute in place; there's no need to copy from "storage" to "executable RAM" or anything like that. This frees up a remarkable amount of memory in practice. Linux's support for XIP is still highly experimental, though it seems some progress is being made.

    The other part of efficiency is the apps. The Palm apps are really well-designed, and really work for a small-screen, stylus device. A lot of Linux apps don't translate so well to a dinky screen and pen-based operation, and even the specific PIM apps have some rough spots (though I admit I haven't seen the very latest environments).

    I finally decided I didn't really need to run a webserver off my PDA (however much I wanted to, yeah I'm a geek), or Quake. I got a Handera 330 [pencomputing.com] off eBay (not easy, some guy had bought the last 11 of them; wtf?). CF and SD slots, 240x320 screen (but grayscale, so battery life doesn't suffer), built-in voice recorder, etc.

  • That's one giant leap backwards... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dublin (31215) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:56AM (#8098932) Homepage
    X is all wrong for devices like this. Qtopia, on the other hand, which is what Sharp was smart enoug to put in them to start with, is a very good fit. This is simply a hacking tour-de-force. Sure, you can do it, and run X on an X-scale PDA, but it's *stupid* to do so. Especially since Qtopia lets you port Qt applications with minimal fuss. I suppose this gives the rabid QT haters somethign to do with their spare time, though, so it's not all bad...
    • Rubbish. X is just fine on a platform like this, if you do it properly. Not to mention, with this box running X, I can access countless fleets of Unix machines which are quite happily configured to allow my X session to work.

      "Qtopia", being new and exciting, is of course a nice lib to namedrop, but in fact 'porting Qt applications' isn't necessarily a factor when you've already got a standard, open, fully working window system implemented. you can port anything to X.

      X works. and ... its not as bad as

  • Title is misleading (Score:3, Informative)

    by Erwos (553607) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @08:58AM (#8098950)
    The title, and even the body of the submitted news are somewhat misleading, in that they imply this is the first time X has been put on a PDA. At handhelds.org, GPE has been running on X for a good long time, and IIRC, even Opie has an X port.

    To be fair, though, this is the first time I've ever seen full-out KDE running on a PDA, so this is something new. Definitely, it's an interesting accomplishment that the author should be proud of.

    -Erwos

  • Who on earth came up with the name? (Score:3, Informative)

    by adrianbaugh (696007) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @09:17AM (#8099111) Homepage Journal
    Don't they realise that cack is a euphemism for "shit" or "godawful"? While naming libcaca was quite appropriate in a self-deprecating ironic way, cacko is not a good name for a distribution you want to be taken seriously.

  • Remote X? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mister Furious (413397) <benNO@SPAMsomeguysserver.com> on Tuesday January 27 2004, @09:31AM (#8099262) Homepage
    Could this be used as a remote X terminal? I haven't looked into the prices of these things, so it'd probably be cost-prohibitive (or at least cost-a-lot), but it could be really useful to have access to my main machine's desktop as I walk around the office.

    • Re:Remote X? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by gregarican (694358)
      Besides VNC you can even run a Windows Terminal Services client. Think it's called WinZConnect or something. I used both awhile back to remotely administer my Windows-based WAN from my Zaurus PDA. The Linux kernel was built with PPTP support so I could use that or OpenSSH tunneling. It was great. Plugged into my cell phone via a CompactFlash card. Anywhere I was I could remote in and do what I needed to.

      Long term I was looking to deploy the PDA's as remote salesperson units. They could run wireless VoIP cl

  • They still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Feint (135854) on Tuesday January 27 2004, @10:32AM (#8099918) Homepage
    The point of a PDA is a digital assistant. By porting X/gcc/etc to it, you get a nice demonstration of C/C++ portability, but you also end up with (another) underpowered desktop.

    The reason for PDAs is not to shrink the desktop to fit in your pocket. They exist to provide pinpoint functionality at your fingertips without having to boot ro lug around your laptop/desktop.

    If the same amount of manhours was put into getting a real PDA environment on top of linux (ie. syncs with outlook, has a taskpad, reads word docs etc) instead of repeated ports of X/perl/gcc/emacs to a handheld, the linux would already dominate the handheld market...
    if you want something starting to get close, look at opie.handhelds.org... They aren't there yet but at least its not another "port the kitchen sink to handheld xyz" project.
  • Imagine on of these or something of simular size with a 60 GB HDD, 2 Gig RAM, 300 Mhz Sysclock, 1280 resolution and OpenGL 2 hardware 3D acceleration with 128 RAM of texturespace.
    UT2k3 or T2 on the bus. When you get bored you fire up blender and start building some new mods. Cool.

    Or something like this:
    "X is doing a LAN Party. I think I'll drop by and play a match or two."
    "You have to go home and get your box."
    "No, I got it right here in my jacketpocket" :-)

  • Slash gets it backwards, as usual (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bitmanhome (254112) <bitman@NoSPaM.pobox.com> on Tuesday January 27 2004, @12:55PM (#8101712)
    This is truly bringing desktop linux to the PDA.
    That's not a PDA, that's a micro-laptop. It has a processor, lots of RAM, a display, and a keyboard. Granted, we surpassed those specs 5-10 years ago, but it really is a laptop. So it's natural a full Linux distro would work, as would DOS and Windows.

    • Re:heh (Score:2, Insightful)

      by acidtripp101 (627475)
      I'm sorry, but I swear that if I see another one of these 'Their server must be running on *Insert device in article here*' trolls, I'm going to shoot somebody.

      It's not funny, nobody cares.
    • I think you mean "Sharp Zaurii"... ;)

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