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Palm Announces Separated Software Operations
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Jan 21, 2002 04:09 PM
from the wish-they'd-license-be-through-palm dept.
from the wish-they'd-license-be-through-palm dept.
Eharley writes: "'Palm on Monday announced it has completed the split of its operating system division from the rest of the company. The software unit will now report separately on the financial performance of its licensing business, and could eventually be spun off or sold by Palm.'
Yahoo is carrying the story here. Considering that their market share in PDA devices has been slipping, is this a move that will signal the end of the Palm hardware line or organizers?"
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Good idea. (Score:2)
an old koan (Score:2, Funny)
Interesting... (Score:4, Troll)
It's interesting that they split the software division off. Microsoft is a well established software giant and having a company that only does software is not such a lucrative position with MS in the mix. Unless there's some contract that says Palm hardware has to use Palm software, I wouldn't be suprised if we eventually saw Palms running Windows CE and never saw Palm software again. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying MS is better, I'm just pointing out the fact that they are bullies and they will do anything to destroy another software maker.
Well.. (Score:4, Insightful)
It may make very solid financial sence for palm to take steps to ensure their hardware and software sections are financially and legally separated. Maybe the COULD sell more palm devices if they used other software.. and maybe they could make more on software if they weren't stuck with a single platform.
This way.. if one fails, the other can go on.
Parent
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Insightful)
At the end of the day, more than 80% of handhelds sold run Palm OS.
If want a handful of Slashdot nerds to use your software, you write it for some iPaq running Linux.
If you want a few gadget freaks to use your software, you write it for Wince/Pocket PC.
If you want your aunt and your grandma and the whole rest of the world to use your software, you write it for Palm OS.
In the handheld market, MS is nothing but fancy marketing. This is why hardware companies license Palm OS.
Re:Interesting... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is no longer mid 2000. At the start of 2001 WinCE had quickly grown from 7% to 10% marketshare. Currently PalmOS devices account for around 70% market share. You can verify this by checking the PDFs of companies that recommend buying options on PDA stocks. WinCE devices are around 26% with the rest taken up by the extremely small players.
7% December/00 to 26% January/02. That is quite a shift isn't it?
Parent
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)
Are you counting dollars spent or units sold? The typical Wince box costs *bunches* more. And what matters to a developer is the size of the existing user base. Considering what a 900-lb marketing gorilla MS is, I think hanging on to market share the way PalmOS has is a remarkable success.
And I think PalmOS is going to be very happy running in future cellphones. I don't think we're gonna see Wince running on Palm iron anytime soon.
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, when I go to the store for "Kleenex" and "Ketchup", I come home with the generic store brand stuff.
"Palm" is a good name, but I can see where it could come to refer to any little handheld computing device ...
Licensing = Internal Competition (Score:4, Informative)
Makes total sense when they're now licensing their OS to several different hardware manufacturers. Think about it. Their hardware team is in direct competition with their own software sales team.
Several companies are in this unique situation but Palm must have realised the benefits of splitting themselves up. Kind of like 3Com splitting off Palm in the first place.
Oh Well. 2002-01-21 01:30:45 Splitting Palm (articles,news) (rejected)
Good move on their part. (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I think that console mfrs should do the same thing. Sony and Nintendo should license their console OS's to anyone who wants to build the boxes (imagine the variety we'd see!).
Re:Good move on their part. (Score:2)
Although I heard that the only reason that they are letting Panasonic build them at all is because of the fact that Panasonic is making all the mini-DVD drives for the GC in the first place.
Re:Good move on their part. (Score:3, Interesting)
Or imagine NTT DoCoMo i-Mode cellphones with the Palm OS interface; in short, this could lead to widespread acceptance of the Palm OS on cellphones worldwide.
Palm still may lose out (Score:2, Redundant)
The reason they are doing this may be because their market has become saturated. As the Yahoo! article mentioned, "demand for organizers has ebbed," and "unlike Microsoft, Palm does not have a multibillion-dollar product like Windows to fall back on." So it looks like this move is Palm's way of trying to ensure their survival as they do business against Microsoft.
Good news... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Good news... (Score:2)
I could see using a 3870 as a laptop replacement with an 802.11 card. As a PDA with WinCE, its calendar sucks compared to DateBk4, it doesn't have travel management software like TravelTracker, the lack of something like MidCapsHack on the block recognizer makes it somewhat less useful, things run super-slow, and there's no free SSH client. Oh yeah, and the dev environment is a pain in the tush.
The Linux support for the 3870 is coming slowly, but it's not going to replace my datebook. There isn't a decent calendaring program yet for iPaq linux, and that's a necessary prerequisite to being a PDA. Not to mention the total lack of an address book. And don't get me started on power management issues...
Obviously, there's a reason I have an iPaq, but it sure as heck isn't because I think it's a PDA. If I lost my Vx, I'd get a PalmOS box, even though switching over to the iPaq would be free.
Good for you if you've found a way to carry the brick of a PDA that the iPaq is without having it drag your pants off. I'm sticking with my Palm for the apps, speed, battery life, size, and weight.
Level Playing field (Score:4, Insightful)
But it makes more sense from a sub-licensor standpoint, in that the money you pay isn't necessary going to your direct competitor.
It sort of levels the playing field
Official Release... (Score:3, Informative)
Palm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
But what about.. (Score:2)
Spin-off? (Score:4, Informative)
I see it now. . .
Palm spins it off, MS's mere presence threatens to buy and squash it so AOL buys it and uses that as another "see I got that too" to MS.
AOL can't figure out what to do with it so they decide to embed it in their mythical "AOL anyhwere" web-applicance along with RHL, Mozilla, Winamp, etc. Suddenly AOL buys another OS so that MS can't quash it, Palm OS is no longer 'needed' in their scheme so they open-source it and make it another AOLServer, the chaos continues and MS wins because they're the only ones with a direction.
Let's see if my prediction happens. I see a pattern emerging. . . .
The End? (Score:4, Insightful)
From where I am standing I see many more PDA devices running PalmOS. Microsoft may have the marketing power to create the illusion that they have big market share, but in reality any other company would be dead if it was based on moving an OS. The competition here has to be on PocketPC Vs. PalmOS Vs. ???. (Because for one thing Microsoft does not provide any hardware to run their PocketPC OS on). In reality I would bet that their are 50 PalmOS related devices sold for every 1 CE/PocketPC device.
Now do I think that Palm is slacking in their Hardware provisions and enhancments....Hell yes I do...But they are the AOL of the PDA world -- and it wont matter how many bells and whistles they have to compete with -- they still will be the king of the hill.
82% market share is the end of the line? (Score:3, Insightful)
I do think that the O/S division being separate is a good thing so if the bozos (former Apple people who have apparently learned nothing about inventory management) that now run Palm screw up again, it is available as a ready-sale item which will keep Palm O/S viable.
Now if we can keep Handspring from shooting itself in the foot (No more Springboard Slots -- WHAT A DUMB IDEA), then the non-MS PDA market can continue to flourish.
Springboard cool thing of the month is MemPlugs [memplug.com] which allow your Handspring to have up to 256MB of RAM. Now that is cool and very usefull for walknetting things from point a to point b.
-- Multics
BeOS (Score:2, Interesting)
Palm? Slipping? (Score:2)
Are you sure that Palm's market share is really "slipping"?
Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem for Palm is that their hardware business has a stronger consumer presence than their software. They also appear to have been asleep at the wheel for some time, while Microsoft was busy reinventing the PDA, Palm have not done anything of note since the Palm VII which is still as big and bulky as ever.
Palm are in a hole because Microsoft are producing a pocket computer while Palm are producing a single purpose appliance.
The problem with a Palm is that is appeals to the same people who used their Filofaxes in the 1980s, those obnoxious organized people who can actually remember to charge the damn thing each night. The Palm VII could have been the answer - a PDA and comunicator in one. Unfortunately using a Palm VII is a bit like using a dual boot Linux/Windows PC. It can play Tombraider, or it can run Gnome but not both at once. Same with the Palm VII, it can download email from Palm net, but it does not integrate seamlessly into my corporate mail system, not without some plugin in the sever my IT dept would never install.
The pocket PC on the other hand is not just a PDA, it has Word and Excell and Outlook. It also has an MP3 player that looks pretty solidly aimed at the consumer market.
So OK at the moment there are relatively few consumers with $500 to spend on a pocket PC, but within a year that price will be $300 and the year after $200. There are an awful lot more consumers interested in a consumer gadget than are interested in a cheap PDA.
OK so you can buy lots of software to make a Palm do the same as a PocketPC - only no MP3 output as there is no audio output. The problem is that by the time you do that you have spent more than you would for the PocketPC and you have a processor that is a third the speed and a third the amount of RAM.
The problem for Palm Software is that they have to quickly get to the point where they can make their platform as a package match Pocket PC. They may be able to buy in some software from third parties and bundle. As things stand they are playing Lotus 123 to Microsoft Office.
Re:Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:2)
Palm's primary drawback right now is the underpowered Dragonball processor. However, the ARM-based models coming out RSN will remedy that. Hopefully, Palm's engineers will be smart enough to avoid featuritis and retain two of the key draws of the Palm platform: simplicity and long battery life.
Nathan
Re:Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:2, Interesting)
First of all, PocketPCs aren't useful for any of the features you mentioned. Do you really want to type out a full word doc on a PocketPC? And if not, then why can't you use the memopad on a Palmpilot? Same goes for Excel. Another thing.. Palmpilot's can integrate seamlessly with outlook in the same way PocketPC's can (yes, right out of the box). The PalmOS also has a larger base of software and while the processor speed may seem slow it's blazingly fast for almost every application available for it.
Yes, even games on the PalmOS are significantly more advanced than on the PocketPC. And mp3 playback? Puh-lease. I'm really not that interested in storing two mp3s on my PocketPC and then being completely unable to put any programs on it.
So am I saying Palm is better than WinCE? No, not really. I have devices running both operating systems, but there are a lot of things about PocketPCs that bother me. The amount of programs available is small and generally limited to commercial apps. Most of those are pretty task-specific and will only be of use to certain people. The rest are very general purpose and are available for any platform on Earth (PDA or otherwise).
On the other hand, the WinCE interface is "prettier" and more "familiar". It's easy to understand how to use one for basic functions if you know how to use windows. What's that mean? Well, it means that the learning curve is about five minutes shorter than on a PalmOS based device. More advanced functions, like file management, still require learning, reading, and frustration.
As flame-like as this might seem... it's just my opinion. Handhelds running Linux are geeky and fun (argh! damn it all! I want one that I can install Linux on!), handhelds running PalmOS are practical and fun (like I said - mucho games, many good), and handhelds running WinCE are pretty. Organizational tasks are possible on any of them, but in the end I still think the PalmOS has 'em all beat for its practicality and usability.
I strongly disagree (Score:3, Interesting)
The modern PocketPC may be quite a bit further along, but it's really not there yet. It offers few worthwhile reasons to switch and many drawbacks. I mean, for the extra 100-300 dollars, what do you get precisely? You certainly get far inferior battery life [especially if you try to use the handheld as the computer it is marketed to be, not as a PDA]. You get an interface that is not nearly as well designed for actual PDA usage. Palm's UI, while it may not be very pretty by todays standards, is fast and is easy to operate proficiently on the go. In short, while PocketPC may _technically_ be able to run all the PDA applications, it does a significantly inferior job of it on the aggregate.
In it's place....we get what? Word and Excel are only be a frustration for the average person to operate. Even for advanced users, it's pretty frustrating. Mp3s? The storage capacity is not nearly there for me at least and the sound quality is pretty flat.
It's not as if you can say that Palm has been or is a failure. They've got the vast majority of the PDA marketshare and they're still controlling roughly 80% of NEW PDA sales DESPITE the presence of these nifty PocketPC gadgets [not to mention the muscle of one very large company].
You may be correct that it is an evolving market. However, many signs show that Palm is adapting appropriately. They're clearly positioning for a radical change (e.g., StrongARM, Be, etc.)
They can test and develop software and hardware quite well without having to spend millions on marketing devices to consumers before they're appropriate. You assert that PocketPC is a success, but has anyone really made any money on it yet when all is considered? I don't think so.
Re:I strongly disagree (Score:3, Informative)
The stock market was up on DotComs too...and about a zillion other companies. The stock market is easily impressed by glitz. Anyways, margins may be relevant, but you're making a big jump here claiming that it is because of margins and not because of other issues (e.g., major inventory issue). You're also making a mistake in automatically assuming the price == margin. Palm sells their less than state of the art devices for nice margins based on its name brand, wide spread use, and simple things like styling (e.g., Palm V). They've also got some very nice margins on PalmOS licensing at about 1.50 a unit. Compare this with Compaq and others that are fighting to pack the most state of the art components in but are adding little value in as a company....
Well I've not used PalmVII extensively, but I have used most others. They get excellent battery life. I've got a PalmVx and i use it regularly and charge it about once every 3 weeks without issue. Name one PocketPC device that can do this. Also, compare the battery life on the power draining wireless features of other PocketPCs while you're at it too.
Ergo they are dead? I disagree. You're also neglecting the fact that Palm is still very much king of the hill here. You could have argued much the same for DOS, Win3.11, Win95...
Palm is smart (Score:4, Informative)
Also, market saturation will reach the hardware market for PDAs much faster than the software market. Who wants to buy another Palm after they just bought their V for three hundred dollars two years ago? Eventually, devices will reach sufficient power and size that continual advancement is senseless, and additional profits will only be extracted by writing new software. Way to see the future, Palm.
Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:5, Informative)
This processor is OLD !
The competitors are miles ahead (BTW: Cool record !)
EPOC - ARM9
PocketPC - StrongArm
Linux - StrongArm
All 32 bits and a modern OS.
Motorola has several successors to the 68xxx series, but none for the PDA marked, the Coldfire for embedded use and the PowerPC for the desktop, and some embedded powerpc variations.
Re:Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:2)
They've been sending me emails on their developer list for months about their next gen, ARM-based Palm device.
Re:Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:5, Informative)
+++
From: PalmSource
To: (snipped)
Subject: Test your app on Prototype ARM Hardware at PalmSource
PalmSource Conference and Expo
Dear (snipped):
The next Palm OS(R) platform with support for ARM-compliant processors is just around the corner, creating new opportunities for Palm OS developers and licensees. PalmSource is the place to get early access to the expertise, information, and tools you need to hit the ground running with the next OS. The conference starts February 5th at the San Jose Convention Center, so reserve your space today and save off the on-site registration fee.
Register before February 1st
Hotels discounts are only guaranteed through Jan. 11th - make your reservations today at www.palmsource.com.
If you have already registered we'll see you in San Jose! Contact palmsource@corp.palm.com if you have questions.
Refer a colleague. Please forward this invitation to your colleagues.
Developer Conference Highlights
Maximize your development investment
Test and tune your code in open labs equipped with prototype ARM-based hardware.
Learn tips and tricks directly from Palm OS engineers.
Gain efficiencies with the Palm OS Platform Compatibility CD.
Network with the best minds in the industry
Hear keynote addresses from industry leaders Tom Siebel and Dave Nagel.
Connect with people who can influence the future of your business.
Parent
Re:Palm biggest problem (NOT The Dragonball) (Score:2, Informative)
Biggest problem is NOT the processor. There are tons of market factors as to why Palms may not be selling. One that comes to mind is, oh, that the processor is perhaps good enough and no one's in a hurry to upgrade!!
PalmOS is intuitive, simple, and does EXACTLY what it was designed to do. It doesn't need any major programming and its very powerful and flexible. How much processing power do you need to call up a person's phone number when you tap their name???
I hope they call the spun-off company "BeOS" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I hope they call the spun-off company "BeOS" (Score:2)
Palm's (and Handspring's) problem... (Score:4, Interesting)
- A.P.
WHAT!? (Score:2, Funny)
Oh...It's not Microsoft? Nevermind.
Palm OS Spin-off (Score:2)
Also, Palm has indicated that it does plan to transition to an ARM processor. Though I don't recall whether they've chosen TI or Motorola as their vendor.
From a developer's point of view (Score:3, Interesting)
As a PalmOS and WindowsCE developer I am constantly tortured by the incredibly sluggish hardware level debugging with WinCE devices.
Additionally during development many WinCE applications will run perfectly well in emulation only to fail on an actual device (and hence requiring more hardware debugging). To be true this is always going to be a problem (the softare emulation/hardware differences) and it does effect PalmOS as well but to a much smaller degree (due to their excellent emulator).
I guess my point is WinCE development is so severly hampered by the Microsoft supplied development environment that I'm not surprised there is considerably less software available for WinCE.
I can see some advantages to WinCE having the 'standard' Win32 interface (assuming you already know how to development in Win32 land) but often I find most functionality is 'stubbed out' and it's a constant question of carefully reading the caveats in the documentation regarding what Win32 features WinCE actually does support...
I'd much rather develop under PalmOS anyday.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Hardware & Software divisions (Score:2, Insightful)
This should make sense: Execution, as always, will play a major role in the success or failure:
1) Hardware division's now free - though more accountable - to create excellent hardware solutions. (My hope is they innovate, but don't create solutions to problems that don't exist [e.g. the MPEG 4-playing, holographic projector model with purple inverse backlighting].)
They may even, as a poster had mentioned, be able to license WinCE, another OS, or at least parts / applications thereof where they were not able to do previously.
Could/would they also license hardware technology from Sony and others?
2) Software division's now free to find additional licensees, not get (completely) hand-tied for what they can and can't do based solely on what one hardware platform provider is giving them.
In this respect, I'd love to see what the folks from Be have in store for OS 5.5 ...
The overall / corporate unit needs to ensure the software / licensing division is careful when licensees start canibalizing their own sales rather than increasing marketshare for the Palm platform. (c.f. the Apple clone market)
As a user, my hope is they keep the Palm a vital platform - this should help do that, but let's hope they keep their eye on the ball.
let's hope this fixes their SDK fascism (Score:2)
Not an impossible situation, but it took me 4 weeks before I could get the SDK up an running. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry !
Perhaps the new structure will get them to ease-up and OPEN up their SDK so the entire OS community can get busy writing applications without having to sign away their first born child.
Out with PalmOS in with BeOS... (Score:2)
So let me get this straight.. Palm spins off their PalmOS division allowing it to chase anyone interested in building Dragonball based PDA's (i.e. Handspring) about a year after they announced that the next Palm would be ARM based, and right after they bought Be.. Hmmm?..
Did BeIA support ARM cpus?
What do you think the chances are that Palm decided to spin off the PalmOS division to make room for the new BeOS engineering team?
Palm is in trouble still.... (Score:3, Insightful)
But things got a bit better, and stablizing. But that still doesn't fix the initial problems that Palm has.
1. Margins on PalmOS devices are quite low compared to PocketPC ones. If you ever wondered why they still make PPC's when Palm has 75%+ market is that they don't have to sell that many to make the same amount of money. Compaq has to only sell 1 iPaq to equal Palm selling 6 m100's.
2. They still lack penetration in the enterprise market, which all the big $$$ are made. This is partially due to the advantage that PPC has with their PocketWord/Outlook/Excel, which allows for pretty seamless transfer in the organization.
3. They haven't been that innovative, and their OS lags behind PPC in the networking/wireless division (which is the "cool" thing nowadays)
4. As some mentioned, outdated hardware specs. MS, for PPC2002, has spec'ed them quite high (hi-res TFT screen, 206 StrongARM CPU, 32+ megs of mem, etc).
Splitting the company CAN be good, but only if they utilize their time and resources as efficient as possible to address these 4 points. If not, I should sell the rest of my stock tomorrow.
I've owned a PalmOS machine for 6 years (yeah, since the pilot1000), but right now, I'm seriously looking to get a PPC machine. PPC has caught up to the point that to choose between a Palm and a PPC, Palm doesn't really make any compelling arguments, hardware or software-wise.
Palm customer service still top notch (Score:3, Informative)
I thought for sure that with all the handheld problems cropping up of late that Palm would follow in the footsteps of other companies, changing their policies as they pleased. But I'm happy to report that that's not the case.
--=Major
Re:But they refused to license BeOS (Score:2, Interesting)
However, given their previous screw-ups, who knows. Maybe Apple should revive the Newton....
Re:I don't think so (Score:3, Insightful)
separately"? Haven't you ever heard of
Handspring [handspring.com]?
Re:I don't think so (Score:2, Insightful)
And what are the great enhancements that should be added to the Palm OS? If Windows CE has some feature, it is called bloated PC legacy crap. If Palm OS adds a feature, it is considered an elegant, fundamanetal feature of pocket organizers.
Re:I don't think so (Score:3)
Well, technically, the OS and the device have already been separated a little bit. I can think of two different companies that use the PalmOS. Handspring and Symbol both use the PalmOS on their devices, and both of them have their own version of the operating system in order to support some of their added features. However, the strict PalmOS doesn't have these features integrated, so in order to get them you have to buy those devices.
Thus, what you have some is some forked versions of the same operating system (sound familiar?). With the Operating System division separated from the device division, it seems to me as if there is a greater chance for those features developed on other platforms to be integrated into the main OS.
Then, instead of having 3 separate versions of the OS implemented different features. You would have one version of the OS, implementing the whole featureset. Palm can then license out the whole OS to many different companies who have their own personal needs, and the developers for each of these different platforms will have one OS to develop for rather than 3 fragmented versions of the OS.
Hence, Palm is making a bigger play into the OS buisiness than they did before. By doing this, they are not only reaching out to customers to license from them (which they already have), they are reaching out to developers who now only have to track one line of the Operating System rather than trying to merge 3 separate Operating Systems which are almost but not completely unlike each other.
Re:this may seem off-topic, but... (Score:2)